CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 9, 2018.

?

Who’s prime was better?

This poll will close on Feb 9, 2102 at 7:45 PM.
  1. Cristiano Ronaldo

    10 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Ronaldinho gaucho

    10 vote(s)
    50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #401 carlito86, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    If Messi did all those things(and he did) in addition to scoring a goal or two there’d be no doubt re his performance being greater than ronaldo

    Sometimes I think you’ve been influenced by advanced statistics to such an extent that you’ve forgotten the real objective of the game
    The objective is to win (even ugly it doesn’t matter)
    Ronaldo fulfilled his role as goalscorer(poacher/whatever) and was more decisive
    Stats for dribbles/chances created are for computer nerds

    Football History is written by game changers
    Like I told you before legends are made by decisive players in big matches and not on opta spreadsheets
     
  2. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Before I leave...

    You are attributing far too much credit here my friend. I would bet money he couldn't even define what statistics is, let alone know advanced conceptions. Another idiot who doesn't know why this game is played.

    "He only sc0rez g0alz... wut else duz he do??? H0w many dribblez or st3p0vers per game duz he have?"
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #403 carlito86, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    It is also a fact that you can only beat the opposition in front of you.
    if you are aware of a higher quality team ronaldo faced in Euro 16 but failed against than by all means please name them.

    (Btw If you say France you deserve a life time ban from all football related forums)
     
  4. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    #404 benficafan3, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    Last point for the night...

    "Very weak teams" like Wales I'm guessing? You know, that team that knocked out one of the favorites, Belgium, of the competition. A side that 2 years before lost in the World Cup quarterfinals and 2 years later won 3rd place at the World Cup. This is the team that Wales beat by a 2-goal margin. A team you not only deem weak... but "very weak". Darn, Ronaldo should have picked the much more difficult teams to play against then...

    But you're right, it's a habit of his to only play well against these "very weak teams" for Portugal...

    Like when he was the best player on the field against Zidane's France in the World Cup semi-final of 2006 outshining his teammates that included Figo and co.
    Or when he scored a decisive first goal against the Netherlands in the Euro 2004 semi-finals that led his country to their first final ever.
    Or maybe when he single-handedly destroyed Sweden and took his country to World Cup 2014.
    No... maybe it was when he scored that decisive brace against the Netherlands in the Euro 2012 Group of Death to qualify Portugal for the Quarter Finals. Where he scored the only goal to get them to the semi-finals. Semi-finals where he captained his team to a performance that was as close as any side ever to knock out a Spain team that won 3 competitions in a row.

    No... the real example is in the most recent World Cup. When he scored a hat-trick against Spain.

    Your point was not only wrong, it attempts to frame Ronaldo's achievements for Portugal as coming against "very weak" sides.

    Re-read the above as an example as to why I called you stupid and why you are, in fact, objectively stupid.

    Goodnight.
     
  5. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    He didn't even played in the final (and in general it was a average presentation of Cristiano Ronaldo in that tournament as well), but they are not ashamed to put that title as CR7's merit.

    He doesn't need to score to be a game changer (had 1 assist though), watch that match again, and at the end you tell me who got the best performance. Do it! I'm really coming from a first hand experience here.

    ...and yes, football history is written by game changers and that's exactly why Messi is better than Cristiano Ronaldo, If you select all the great/big games/clasicos and compare the performance of each one, it is not even close, Cristiano Ronaldo had a lot of moments (some he still providing all-round performances), but still not enough to compare.

    PD: Usually CRfanboys that are too much oriented by statistics (not advanced ones), that is the only way to make Ronaldo closer to Messi (especially after 2014) and you know it.
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #406 Tropeiro, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    Funny, I'm idiot... intelligent is a random Portuguese member that is here since 2005 and still thinks that Cristiano Ronaldo is really comparable with Messi and other greats of this sports.

    Monkey levels of intelligent that could learn nothing and neither defending your point of view with the minimum respect, I'm done with you, midget person.


    PD: I always notice that the Portuguese are getting more and more americanized in their expressions, it's interesting because only the troll part is used there, that says a lot about where you guys can go.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Messi wasn’t decisive in that match and his assist was a rebound shot scored by Suarez
    So definitely not an assist according to your own criteria (opta stats)

    Can also Stop flip flopping and changing the goal posts
    We are taking about Messi/ronaldo vs juventus not about el Classico matches
    Ronaldo was a decisive player (a player of moments yes but decisive nonetheless vs juventus)
    Messi was not

    I’ve watched all of Lionel Messis performances in 2014/15(some of them on more than 1 occasion)
    So your first hand experience isn’t useful here
    If you must refer to my previous posts on this topic you’d see I rate his performance vs juventus 15 highly and it was unfair in my view he lost the MOTM award to iniesta

    This doesn’t change the fact that ronaldo was better and taken together as a complete body of work his 16/17 champions league campaign was a masterclass of decisive moments the likes of which have hardly been seen in football history
     
  8. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    I don't care about others definition, to me it was a assist, that was my definition seeing that match.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #409 carlito86, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    So you admit to being a dishonest analyst that picks and chooses when to blindly adhere to whoscored.com ?

    For me an assist is literally what it says
    An assist on goal whether that be via a final pass or deflected shot or any involvement that directly precedes a goal in open play(so obviously not including earned penalties and not including pre assists that contain a sequence of involved players)

    For you it shouldn’t be because Whoscored uses an algorithm that doesn’t calculate wide assists
     
  10. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #410 Tropeiro, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    You - and generally CRfanboys - use whoscored numbers, statistics much more than I do, I talk mostly about my own impressions. I only use some data to demystify some fallacies, I don't make it my point like others here. I'm a lover of this game after all.

    I watched Ronaldinho many times in his peak and the general impression given at that time is that he was much more able to surprise and decide hard matches than the player of Madeira, in spite of the latter being much more professional and consistent, and also playing in a much more advanced position.

    Ronaldinho in his peak always on my team.

    PD: Comparing an pure artist like Ronaldinho with a player who thinks that being called robot is a compliment is complicated, very complicated.
     
    ko242 repped this.
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #411 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    This is a shameless lie on your part
    You really rely 100% on whoscored to form an opinion on a player.ive yet to see you objectively analyse a single player without the help of advanced stats

    Which year was Ronaldinho more able to decide big matches
    And which Ronaldinho are you referring to(maybe there could be a player with a similar name that I’m not aware of)

    Ronaldinho gaucho dribbled past a kid Sergio Ramos to score his iconic goal vs Real Madrid
    Bearing in mind Sergio Ramos was more known at this stage for his bad temperament than being some archetypal defensive maestro
    This was the same old Real Madrid side that Thierry Henry turned up against in a big way also scoring a solo goal
    Bearing in mind Henry before and after this encounter never did anything in the CL ko stages against any opponent in his WHOLE Career

    Madrid 05/06 was an extremely overrated side with many pensioners and “has beens”
    Figo got offloaded to inter Milan a season later,R9 was fat,Zidane soon retired and Raul was arguably in the worst form of his career
    Etc....

    We can discuss his other untouchable performances at another time but for one it’s worth bearing in mind the limited Cristiano ronaldo scored in 7 consecutive matches at the Camp Nou in 2012 and 2013
    Over 20 goals against atletico Madrid including 3 hattricks
    And 1 gpg against Bayern Munich and juventus

    There isn’t any player in history who is “much more able” to decide big matches than Cristiano Ronaldo
    Talk about exaggerations
     
  12. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    If this were true the only decisive players in the game of football would automatically be forwards. Without looking up any stats, it's quite possible a player like Aguero or Dzeko has more career goals than Cruyff or even Maradona. Would you say Aguero was more decisive than those two legends in influencing a soccer match? I sure as hell wouldn't. As you and I both know, many great football minds actually maintain that great midfielders are the most influential players on the soccer pitch.

    The last part about decisive players (i.e. goalscorers) being remembered is mostly true but it doesn't make their performances objectively better.

    Yes that is a fact too. You can only play who's in front of you. I'm not blaming Ronaldo for scoring against Wales. I'm saying that scoring against such weak sides does not tell me much about a player in the context of all time greatness. Any decent player can score a goal (or a brace) against teams of such quality. As far as his legacy goes, the Euro 2016 title does virtually nothing to enhance it.
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Like I said nobody was discussing European championships(in any context)
    So I’m not sure what exactly your problem is with ronaldo winning the Euros(it wasn’t brought up by anyone until you did)

    A lot of Messi fanboys suffer from a inferiority complex (do You remember laughing when I said this but there you go again proving my hypothesis to be true)
    Messi failing to win major trophy for the NT has no doubt made you feel as if it is your responsibility to denigrate ronaldo who in fact did win a European championship

    For you information winning a major trophy for your country as a captain whether you like it or not will enhance your legacy in the all time stakes
    As of yet I haven’t heard anyone suggest it will do for him what WC 86 did for maradona or Euro 84 did for platini.
    Ronaldo is not a great player because of what he did in that tournament.maybe you can say it highlighted his leadership qualities for those who were unaware
    What he did against wales and Hungary is no different to what he has done for Portugal on too many occasions to count

    Since you are such a huge fan of facts We can say unequivocally if ronaldo did not respond with 3 game changing moments against poor Hungary than Portugal would’ve exited from the groupstage and watched the remainder of the tournament in their country.
    That is a contribution surely worth some merit

    The “Messi led Argentina to a word cup final” line which you have made your catch phrase is highly ironic considering your recent outburst
    Let’s for the sake of argument agree Messi led Argentina to that final
    Is Bosnia Herzegovina a great team(did they ever qualify for a tournament previously)
    Iran?
    Nigeria?

    You do realise both Hungary/wales were in the top 20 ranked teams in the world during 2016
    https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/rank/id11517/

    Whilst in 2014 Bosnia was ranked 19th
    Iran at 49th place
    And Nigeria in 34th position
    https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/rank/id10789/
    The only team Messi was decisive against that was ranked in the top 10 was Switzerland
    Besides this the rest of the opposition was well well below par



    Lastly stop misconstruing what I was saying
    I did not claim only a goalscorer or forward can be decisive
    at the same however time it usually is offensive minded players who are the game changers
    Cruyff scored more career goals than either Eden dzeko or Agüero and did outside of goals substantially more than either player
    So I’m afraid you need to pick better examples

    I’m not sure how maradonas name crept into this discussion
    Going by his magnum opus WC 86 he was the everything of the team
    Leader,creator,match winner,dribbler,magician all rolled up into one
    Maradona 86 is a level above ronaldo 16/17 because the latter only replicated part of his legacy(as a decisive match winner but without the magic and the all round influence to go along with it)
     
  14. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I get it you don't like Ronaldinho but you take it to extremes bro. Gimme a break with Sergio Ramos. He is no defensive maestro and he is still a hot head. That R10 would still blow by Ramos in that same situation (actually both situations). That's only if Ramos wasn't able to hack him down.
     
    ko242 repped this.
  15. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Damn man, you can't even give magical to Ronaldinho. I guess it can be subjective, but you're probably grouped with like 1% of the population that think that way.
     
  16. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You're obsessed with goals as a means to measure overall performance when comparing the two. How can we compare Messi to Ronaldo in terms of goals if Ronaldo, specially in the CL turned into a one touch box striker while Messi is basically part of the build up getting the ball in way deeper positions ? Ronaldo turned into a donkey when he had to take more than 2 touches to score a goal in the past 2 CL seasons in those decisive matches.

    In that Suarez goal, Messi brought the ball from the midfield, dribbled a player / shrugged a challenge on top of the box and shot making one of the best GKs cough up the ball. I guess if his shot was deflected, it might have just gone in directly :whistling:

    BTW ... talk about Madrid lucky as shit last 2 CL finals ... 2 deflected goals in one final, 2 major GK fuk ups in the other. And the previous final of the treble offsides goal + PK shootout.
     
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  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #417 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    Whether you like it or not post retirement Sergio Ramos will be considered a top 10 all time CB
    The talent was there from when he was young(you don’t get compared to maldini for no reason)
    It just took awhile for him to realise his potential and that was way after he faced dinho



    Btw I don’t hate dinho I’m just forced to seem as though I do by people who insist he is even remotely comparable to a player like Cristiano Ronaldo
    You can cross check my posts and find me an example of where I ever compared him to a nobody
    He is a legend in his own right just nowhere as good a player as Cristiano ronaldo

    Btw Mr objective poster I don’t see you being so vocal with posters who have been spouting nonesense for the last several pages
    there is a clearly driven agenda on this forum with participants from across the board
    You don’t believe me go check how long the mods allowed the “Romario overrated thread”to last in comparison to how long they left the numerous overrated threads of Zidane/Cristiano ronaldo

    The Romario thread was blocked after 1 page while the Zidane and Cristiano ones were allowed to run into the 100s of pages
    Clearly there are people here who are interested in propagating a false narrative and not comfortable with their childhood hero’s being scrutinised
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I’m not sure why this is such a highly controversial statement
    You agreed with me that CR could perform most of the ball skills of dinho in his prime(albeit dinho was more natural in his movements)

    So surely what this comes down to is a preference of style and not substance
    It’s not like I’m comparing miroslav klose to Ronaldinho ok
     
  19. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    No he couldn't. If I said that I am wrong.

    Ramos getting tooled by out of form Ronaldinho @4:46 :laugh: ... but probably still too young here.

    Look at how he gets past Pepe as well @4:28. Shows him the ball and then whoops ! This is Ronaldinho past his prime with a lot less pace.

     
    ko242 repped this.
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #420 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    You do realise I could produce the same type of video with a click of a mouse key
    There are tonnes of examples of players like pique,kaka,Ashley Cole,John Terry,Patrick viera,puyol etc....being dribbled,nutmegged,put on their backside by Cristiano ronaldo is his prime

    I’m not sure what such a video intends to prove
    Like I said we aren’t comparing miroslav klose to dinho
     
  21. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Dude ... you belittled his dribbling of Ramos twice in that Madrid game by saying Ramos was young. So I am showing you a past prime Ronaldinho still schooling Ramos. That's all.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #422 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    You do realise a lot in fact the vast majority of these dribbles are prime examples of showboating(midfield dribbles with hardly end product)

    You cannot tell me that a knowledgeable fan as yourself is bemused by Milan dinho who proved without his pace he wasn’t even 10% as dangerous which can explain why he spent a substantial portion of his career in semi retirement in Brazil and whatever obscure South American team was willing to pay him for his service)
    Most likely had Ramos in his prime faced him in the final third in a one v one he’d most probably hack down his slow ass

    Ramos has gotten the better of Lionel Messi(mostly illegally)on more occasions than I can count
    Do you think if prime Ramos faced the slow ass version of dinho in the penalty area he’d allow himself to be humiliated
    It is a logical impossibility and you know it

    At least 25% of dinhos legend hinges on that performance vs Real Madrid and another 10% for the standing ovation
    The sooner people realise this was an extremely overrated side with loads of players past their prime the better

    people cannot seem to accept that not every Madrid or Barcelona side is amazing
    Every team should be judged on the merit of their own performance and not the reputation they come with( or the big star names they have on their books)
    Real Madrid 1993/94 wasn’t amazing
    Neither was the Barcelona side that asprilla scored a hattrick against in 97/98
    Nor was the Madrid side that dinho or Henry scored solo goals against

    2010/11 was a very good Real Madrid team and Messi deserves full credit for his performance against them that season (in the league and champions league)
     
  23. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Prime R10 still gets the better of prime Ramos. I am just making a point for you because you belittled R10s dribbling by saying Ramos was young. R10 didn't only beat Ramos, he put his ass on the ground like many others. Regardless of those solo goals being vs subpar Madrid teams, individual goals like that are still great accomplishments and pieces of skill. Heck, the English players Maradona beat on his goal of the century looked like a bunch of buffoons. And as bad as they may have been, they were still 2nd best in the league. Your compilation of Ronaldo dribbling in EPL is probably littered with terrible players from weak teams.

    As far as skills and passing and R10 vs CR7 ... there are plenty R10 did that CR7 just couldn't do. Now, you can show plenty of skills and passes from CR7, but the fact is, he didn't do it with the same precision and consistency. Just like I can show you many goals R10 scored that have the same skill CR7 showed ... but he didn't do with the same frequency and consistency.

    And a question for you ... more like a curiosity and peculiarity ... why did Alves seem to mostly get the better of Ronaldo even at his prime ? It always seemed strange to me because Alves was never a great defender but consistently got the better of Ronaldo in my view.
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The plenty that Ronaldinho could do that CR couldn’t do is still one of those myths that cannot be proven
    i don’t think you realise 70-80% of the dribbles you see in my comps are of pre 2009 ronaldo
    That is ronaldo before he was 24 years old(or to get even more specific younger than dinho when he arrived at Barcelona)

    he was literally doing insane shit week in week out for Portugal and Manchester United on the pitch and with machine like consistency
    He was the biggest show of the town and when he left the British press bemoaned he was English footballs greatest creative force since George best
    At 22 years was already one of the most complete attackers of all time

    Ronaldo pulled of amazing visionary balls but I agree with nowhere near the same frequency as Ronaldinho
    Admittedly that has to do a lot more with his position and role within the team rather than lack of ability



    The whole dani Alves owning CR has been covered previously
    He clearly did not do a good enough job especially when in his prime ronaldo scored on 7 consecutive occasions in the Camp Nou
    Puyol,Alves,pique were all victims at one stage or another
    The only one who handled ronaldo surprisingly well was zambrotta and that was way back in 2008
     
  25. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    That's fair. I can agree and it's what I've been trying to say. Ronaldo is not a great player because of what he did at Euro 2016.

    All those teams apart from Bosnia are objectively better than Hungary and Wales and have qualified for many international tournaments.

    That being said, you're right that Messi also beat up on fairly weak opponents. That's why Messi is not an all-time great international player either. Neither he nor Ronaldo are top 10 all-timers probably not even top 20 if we go by international careers only.

    You said forger dribbles, key passes etc; that's for stat nerds and that goals matter. Anyways I disagree completely. To me even a defender or a goalkeeper can be decisive. They are usually less recognized that's a fact but it doesn't make them less decisive.

    You get the Cruyff/Maradona example. If you don't like Aguero, take Zlatan. He definitely has more goals than either and by some distance. Nobody would say Zlatan (and I love Zlatan) is better than those two legends.
     

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