CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 9, 2018.

?

Who’s prime was better?

This poll will close on Feb 9, 2102 at 7:45 PM.
  1. Cristiano Ronaldo

    10 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Ronaldinho gaucho

    10 vote(s)
    50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1 carlito86, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
    This thread is long overdue.
    (@ko242 proposed the idea some time ago)
    TBH with you guys despite my rhetoric about Ronaldinho ,as a technician I actually do rate him amongst the best (and also as an entertainer)
    Also as a freekick specialist (not many have scored 60+ freekicks)
    Primarily though as second striker/attacking midfielder he excelled as a playmaking specialist (even though he was never really the de facto playmaker of his teams-for Barcelona it was really deco and for Brazil he shared duties with rivaldo and kaka)

    As a scorer I thought he was extremely overrated (in his best seasons 35-65% of his goals were either set pieces or penalties)
    Okay so scoring wasn’t his primary function but it is worth noting since many of you will say many of Cristiano’s assists were basic even though playmaking wasn’t/isn’t his job(even though he can perform it to a reasonably high level as he showed in 06/07,11/12 and 12/13)

    Ronaldinho’s raw production even in his best seasons wasn’t otherworldly even compared to players like rivaldo 98/99(a player who is seemingly underrated for being less stylish but undoubtedly more productive)

    Ronaldinho also doesn’t have a remarkable record in finals (a bit like maradona in this regard)although he does have some semifinal performances that rank amongst the best


    Cristiano Ronaldo is a player who I have always argued in favour for on this forum.
    If there are some who believe his latter years were overrated (post 2015 imo he has been a striker) Then I will make the case that in his physical prime he was undervalued and underrated both as a player and technician.
    Ronaldo is easily the best a number 2 player of his generation has ever been.
    During his physical prime 2007-2014 his level of performance never or hardly regressed

    IMO a potential top 10-15 all timer is obvious by the time he is 19-22 years old
    At 20 r9 was a ballon dor winner
    At 21 messi was a ballon dor winner
    At 22 in 69 cruyff was widely considered a top 3 player in Europe
    At 22 in 06/07 Cristiano was widely considered a top 2 player in the world and the best league performer in the world
    In 1980 At 20 years old maradona was widely considered to be the best player in the world
    Pele was a anomaly.at 17 years he was a phenomenon in a World Cup and in 59 at 18 years old the best in the world scoring close to 100 goals(including friendlies)
    Even Franz Beckenbauer a defensive player was widely considered one of the best in the World in 66 at the age of 22 years (particularly for his great World Cup performance)

    Other phenomenons like best 67/68 was 21 years old

    Zidane Xavi,iniesta were nobodies till their mid to late twenties
    Romario didn’t even play professional football till 21 years old and was 26/27 in 94
    Rivaldo was a ufo till he was 26 years old
    Ronaldinho won his first wpoty at 24 years old(and had no top 15 finishes previous to 04)

    My argument is a player who many here would argue was inherently a more talented and gifted player than Cristiano should be widely considered a top player in the world in his late teens to early 20s(and he wasn’t)
    2007 CR7 wasn’t a goal machine in fact very far from it (he was a weak finisher)
    He was (arguably)the best player in the world because of his natural ability combined with his ability to win matches singlehandely and he did that in the best league in Europe at the tender age of 21 years old
    All time talent is always noticeable from a very young age (the signs are always there)
    Players who had to work for it usually reached the top a little later in their careers.

    Ronaldos gift for scoring is known so there isn’t a need to go into depth
    But in other attributes mainly technically he is underrated and I think this is borne out of the fact that his best wasn’t as good as messi’s(and I agree)
    And for large portions of his career was directly compared to a player he was inferior to(slightly or hugely isn’t the point)
    When your the best you are usually exempt from criticism,2nd place is different.
    Remembering at his best Cristiano was the best FK specialist in the world from 2008 till at least 2010
    The best dribbler in the world from late 2006 throughout 2007 until March 2008(his ankle injury)
    Also in 2009/10 he was a top 3 dribbler in Europe and perhaps only behind messi in terms of being a direct dribbling threat.

    As he evolved into a scorer he became goat at heading and positioning a unparalleled threat when shooting from distance,his link up play was also underrated (and off the ball runs-just how many km did Cristiano clock on average per match in his physical prime)

    To summarise because this is already lengthy enough Cristiano was a footballing phenomenon from his early years and maintained his level for an unprecedented amount of years.
    It is clear from the views and opinions of many that they never watched Cristiano particularly during 07-10 when they describe him as being a step over clown.
    Ronaldo was elite during this period with the tricks to match the very best of dinho and the directness of r9(in 96/97 particularly)
    I think alot of fans probably started paying serious attention to Cristiano in 08/09 a season in which he was very stiff and didn’t regain his dribbling agility till late 08/09
    Anyways below I will post three comps of matches that I believe encapsulates Cristiano at his very best
    A player who is very involved much in build up play,dribbling,creating chances and scoring

    1 goal+3 assists
    IMHO his best Manchester United league performance(followed closely behind by his champions league games vs Roma 07 and arsenal 09)


    2 goals+2 assists
    If 2011/12 is widely considered to be his best ever league campaign than this. Is surely one of if not his best ever league performance of the season
    (The away performance vs atletico in 2012 runs this close though )


    And from his debut Real Madrid season 2009/10 vs osasuna.ronaldo was effectively a striker who drifted from wide this season yet he managed a high percentage of dribbles,key passes and was motm in 50% of games he played.in this season him and r9 from 96/97 are at the same level (in dribbling,goal ratio even in shirt number
    9)
    Even opta ratings rank Ronaldo very close to prime dribbling machine Lionel Messi in 2009/10

    There are of course many others but during his prime at least for me he was either a huge dribbling threat but not productive or very productive but lacking flair or ingenuity (that many would ascribe to dinho in his pomp)
    Fans of Ronaldinho please feel free to critic my assessment of him and share performances that you reckon portrays him in a better light than Cristiano.
    (But I don’t want to see the generic performances vs Real Madrid,Chelsea,Milan I want to see a typical performance of Ronaldinho from 04/05 or 05/06 ,a league performance preferably-games in which he was an all round attacking threat
    Dribbling,scoring and creating )
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #2 carlito86, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
    The last comp I posted for the 09/10 season was in fact a mistake(that was a good dribbling performance with end product vs Malaga but not the one I was talking about)
    The match I refer to vs osasuna in 2010 is below with all his touches
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #3 carlito86, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
    Pes stats
    Comparison in dribbling,technique,aggression/directness

    Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07
    Dribbling accuracy:92
    Dribbling speed:95
    Technique:95
    Aggression:97


    Ronaldinho (prime)2004-2006
    Dribbling accuracy:97
    Dribbling speed:94
    Technique:99
    Aggression:87


    Other Brazilian contemporary greats

    Neymar (PSG)
    Dribbling accuracy:93
    Dribbling speed:94
    Technique:90
    Aggression:91

    Kaka 2006/07
    Dribbling accuracy:89
    Dribbling speed:95
    Technique:90
    Aggression:87

    Rivaldo 1998/99
    Dribbling accuracy:95
    Dribbling speed:87
    Technique:96
    Aggression:88
    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3897
    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3897
    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7365
    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3991
    https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10125

    in categories such as shooting and heading post 2009 ronaldo is obviously far ahead
    Ronaldinho holds a significant edge in playmaking (and interesting that pes stats ranks PSG Neymar as dinhos equal in long and short passing-which further substantiates my point that Neymar is approaching elite playmaking territory something which is further confirmed by whoscored ratings and many examples I have posted on the Neymar/figo thread )

    I think the 97 dribbling accuracy for Ronaldinho is extremely far fetched tbh this would mean he is in the messi,best,savecivic and maradona range of close control which he simply wasn’t
    Anything more than a 95 DA is an exaggeration in my eyes(he should be more or less equal to r9 in close control but the latter was more dangerous because of his directness and aggression)


    I think it is an example of covert racism/anti European bias that South American players are automatically assumed to be inherently more gifted or naturally talented than their European counterparts

    Prime Cristiano is but one example of a player who can hold his weight against any renowned South American technician
    Others include piksi,savecivic,Micheal laudrup,Dennis Bergkamp,zidane

    Don’t get me wrong there are also underrated SA players who I enjoy watching like enzo francescoli (zidanes idol) and magical gonzalez

    Personally I think the theory that players are becoming more consistent,more productive and effectively better with every passing generation needs to gain more traction
    I don’t think goat technique or flair can be taught and there will always be players that look sexier on the ball(forgive me I can’t think of another word)
    Van basten or Romario for example scored a variety of sexy/technically difficult goals
    lewandowski and Suarez(to a lesser degree )mainly score typical goals(basically easy finishes with the occasional technically difficult goal)
    But Suarez and lewandowski are also way more productive players during their prime (also scoring in high profile matches)
    Personally I still think van bastens ability to turn up on the big stages(finals)places him above the aforementioned names but still is it enough to say he is in a different stratosphere to players like Suarez,Romario and co

    With Cristiano you have a player who in terms of technique was comparable to the greats and whose statistical input has only been mirrored by maybe 2-3 players in football history
    Playing as a pure winger in 2006/07 he combined all time technical ability with stats that were for his position unheard of (23 goals and 22 assists -in the best league in Europe)

    In 07/08 playing almost an identical role to George best he outscored him in less matches,and he did it playing in a more defensive era.
    Not to mention they were also technically comparable players
    (It’s not like were talking about speed merchants like bale,Henry or salah or a player with ugly style like Suarez-07/08 ronaldo was compared by the greats to the greats in addition to being recognised by his peers as the bpitw)

    The idea that dinho at his best is close to maradona but Cristiano only makes top 20 all time because of longevity is baseless,non factual and actually fuelled by fanboyism.
    You can easily find out with limited research how ronaldo was perceived as a technical player when he was in his pomp by analysts,managers,legendary players who watched ronaldo regularly.you will find that what they thought and what many here think are far removed from one another
    Like I said Ronaldinho was a special talent who was able to conjure up special moments in some big matches (no doubt)
    Where these performances over magnified to portray a player who was always at this level (vs Milan 06)?
    Probably yes

    Despite being a special talent was dinhos technique exaggerated by 5-10 min YouTube compilations?
    Definitely

    Also many fans attempt to create a Frankenstein version of Ronaldinho
    The dinho of 03/04 and 04/05 was fast(in fact much faster than any version of rivaldo or zidane)
    He was also direct(dribbling into the box from deep positions with regularity)
    It was during these two seasons that he scored the majority of his solo goals
    The 05/06 dinho is heavier not as mobile nor as electrifying (he could rarely dribble with the same tenacity-the Madrid game is an exception)
    But he substituted his penetrating runs with crowd pleasing tricks(some effective others not so much but all great for the youtube highlight reel) and was at the height of his playmaking capabilities (his passing in this season was off the scale so no need to debate here)

    So fans of dinho are obviously being disingenuous when they describe his peak
    At the early stages of his peak he was indeed a great and effective dribbling threat but in the latter stages (arguably the period he is lauded most for )he is a slightly different player.
    Also is the question of consistency.his fans like to say he isn’t ranked top 10 all time because he didn’t have the longevity or consistentcy of others
    I make the argument that even during his peak seasons he wasn’t as consistent as you would like to think he was

    CRonaldo was, just take his peak as an example 2011/12
    He scored against every single team in La Liga (19 opponents which is a record shared by r9 96/97 and messi 12/13)
    And he scored in the most games ever in a season 27 matches in 38 games)
    Only Lionel Messi equalled this record(in 2012/13)
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.foxsports.com/soccer/gallery/the-12-la-liga-scoring-records-held-by-lionel-messi-and-cristiano-ronaldo-120216?amp=true
    This is the bar of greatness and consistentcy that Ronaldinho couldn’t meet in any of his peak seasons
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @PuckVanHeel
    While looking at examples of young prodigies I stumbled across Johan cryuff in 66/67
    I believe he scored a quite ridiculous 41 goals in 41 matches 33 coming in the league out of 122 goals(a eredivisie record) playing as an attacking midfielder
    He was 19 years old I believe at the beginning of this season.
    Why is he underrated in the 67 ballon dor rankings?
    was the late 60s a high scoring period in the eredivisie (if it was it would mitigate his level of goalscoring of course)?
    How would you define cruyffs position at this time was he a forward or AM as this source describes him?
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/synd...est-player-seasons-in-soccer-history.amp.html

    And lastly bringing this back to the op would you agree that all time talents are noticeable from a very young age with no exceptions?
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #5 PuckVanHeel, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
    Once again (and I know this will be fruitless);

    Yes he was potentially underrated, and respect for the team did not translate into respect for the players. At the end of 1967 the very same France Football already ranked Ajax among the five best club teams of Europe. This was a widely circulated yearly poll among European journalists and largely the same group as the BdO voters. He was already impressive and productive against teams as Liverpool, Spain and Real Madrid.

    See also things as this (kicker and miroir):
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/fourfourtwos-greatest-ever-club-sides-2013.2079150/#post-36349217
    https://www.om4ever.com/Chroniques/JohanCruyff.htm

    Some foreign publications already saw him as one of the best in Europe (miroir says that literally).

    I have no gusto to spell it all out again.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    @leadleader
    Would you agree on this being one of dinhos best ever league performances or at least in 05/06?
    I think what is clearly missing in this performance is a goal (of any kind)
    If he had scored this could possibly be a 9-9.5 performance out of 10

    I think here he combined the dynamic and visionary passing ability of maradona in Napoli (or Messi of recent years) and the entertainment value of r9 in his intermilan pomp.
    That back pass assist I had seen before(it is also something I have seen cr7 do in 10/11 just not for an assist)
    But sincerely he gets top marks for this genius level performance
    I don’t think it would be an outrageous claim that dinho at his very best wasn’t less impressive than r9 from a purely technical standpoint
    @celito
     
  7. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Well, first of all, they way you took a shit on so many other players in your opening post when your title is CR7 vs Ronaldinho in prime, is a bit strange. I will just comment that saying Romario and Rivaldo were nobodies until they went to Europe is just plain stupid ... based on the fact that when they hit Europe they needed zero adaptation time as they shone from the start. You can really say they didn't need to learn anything to play in Europe.

    As for CR7 vs Ronaldinho, CR7 obviously takes the cake for goal scoring and professionalism. Ronaldinho was more genius and more of a joy to watch (for my taste). Sort of similar position than CR7 but honestly very different roles in their teams.

    Ronaldinho was more technical all around compared to R9 IMO.

    And I don't think a goal was missing from that performance given scoring goals was not as heavy of a function of his game.
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    If you refer back to the op l didn’t say Romario was a nobody before he came to europe(I said rivaldo and maybe I was exaggerating but he definitely wasn’t some renowned phenomenon at Palmeiras)
    Romário wasn’t on the radar as one of the Worlds best players till his mid twenties.a lot of his goals in his first stint at Vasco Gama were scored for the junior team and he never made the SA player of the year podium even once before he went to psv

    If you ask any poster here they will say players like rivaldo and Romario were gifted phenomenons
    I was making the case that a phenomenon is known from a much younger age

    R9 finished 2nd in the ballon dor At 19 years old and won it at 20 years old

    Messi finished 3rd at 19 years old and won it at 21 years old

    At 19 years old Johan cruyff put on a more prolific goalscoring campaign than Romario ever managed in Europe despite not even being a penalty area striker

    At 21 years old Cristiano finished 2nd in the ballon dor

    Pele was 17 at World Cup 58 and the best player in the world in 59 with a phenomenal campaign

    Maradona was a the bpitw At 20 years old in 1980 and a top 5 player while he was a teenager

    George best was 21 years old in 67/68

    This fits into my wider point that if dinho is seen here as being more naturally gifted than CR7 and a player who is inherently better how comes this isn’t reflected in how they were perceived in their younger days

    At barely 23 year old Cr7 (2008)was established as an all time great of a legendary club with a ballon dor,1 runner up ,2 league titles,1 champions league
    Ronaldinho was hardly considered a top 10 player in Europe prior to 2003(when he was 23 years old)
     
  9. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    This has been discussed years before but Pelé only started to receive press voices as best player or best offensive player by 1961 (age 21), according to my information. Others such as PuckVanheel have argued as early as 1960 when Pelé was around the age of 20.

    In any event, no awards or polls were conducted at that time to substantiate any of those isolated claims.

    In regards to Maradona, he’s South American player of the year (El Mundo) and world player of the year by Guerin Sportivo by 1979 (picked by its editors; not any poll). He’s 19 years old.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  10. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    In fact it’s January 1960 when Pelé received a first interview by the Argentinian magazine of El Gráfico. It’s when for the first time he’s mentioned and asked how does it feel to be one of the stars in the world and perhaps the most famous at that time. By November 1961 the same magazine headlines in its front page that he’s the best in the world.
     
  11. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    #11 ko242, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    #1) why are you going off topic. Stick to prime years. You specifically said prime years. Stop talking about 19-23 years old.

    #2) WTF???!
    The amount of times Ronaldinho had game changing moments in 2-3 years rivals any player I know.
    Real Madrid (multiple times). AC Milan (Multiple Times!). Chelsea (multiple times).
    These teams alone were the toughest teams for Barcelona at this time!
    Ronaldinhos prime of 2-3 years matches pretty much any player in the games history.

    Obviously I have different standards of what makes a greater player. If a player A performs 80% of the time against the best teams and 40% of the times against the weak teams I rate that faaar higher than a player B who performs 40% against the best teams and 80% against the weak teams.

    Because inherently, it is more difficult to beat the best teams! If player B performs 80% of the time against weak teams that his own team would struggle to defeat without him then that is a different story. The fact is, if you look at Madrids record the last 3-4 years without Ronaldo it was still very good. As a matter of fact, one of the 2 leagues Madrid won in the last 10 years is when Ronaldo got a lot of bench time in 16-17. In 11-12 I give CR7 credit. He was a monster in that year when they won the league
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #12 carlito86, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    The notion that what Ronaldinho achieved in two to three years is unprecedented or puts him on par with the greatest isn’t a fact that that is substantiated by any source or statistical analysis just your personal preference

    Johan Cruyff between 72-74 had more big game performances than dinho managed during 04-06.
    European cup final performances vs juventus and particularly inter Milan
    A hat trick of assists vs Real Madrid in 73/74 at the bernabau
    Scored one of the greatest goals in La Liga history against 2nd place Atlético Madrid
    And I am no expert on cruyff so there could be possibly be more
    And of course this is just performances for his clubs and doesn’t include what he did to teams like Argentina,France and Brazil in WC 74

    Cristiano had better all round champions league performances for Manchester United and better league performances for Real Madrid
    From 2007-2009 he had big game all round performances
    Vs Roma 2007(quarter final)
    Vs Chelsea 2008(final)
    Vs Arsenal 2009(semi final)

    And littered amongst these he slightly had less impressive performances (from a individualistic perspective)but still managed to scored World class match winning goals
    Vs Porto 2009(quarter final)
    Vs Roma 2008(quarter final)

    So we can compare a two to three year stretch of CR7s career and he will still come out favourably against Ronaldinho
    Longevity is no contest hence the reason I limited this thread to prime only

    CR7s 2011/12 campaign in terms of league performance is unmatched
    by any legendary players who played in La Liga with the exception of Lionel Messi
    And that includes
    Romario 93/94
    R9 96/97
    Dinho 04/05 and 05/06
    Suarez 15/16
    Xavi 08/09
    Zidane 02/03

    Ronaldo destroyed big and small teams in the 11/12 La Liga edition.
    Scoring hat tricks against 4th place Málaga and 5th place Atlético Madrid (both performances included some stunning goals)
    Match winning goals against Barcelona (2nd place) and Valencia (3rd place)
    46 league goals scored against all La Liga teams in a single season and in 27 matches out of 38(record)


    Whether you want to compare an early stage of Cristianos prime or latter stage he would still come out looking favourably against prime Ronaldinho
    Cristiano maintained the level of a top 10 all timer for at least 7 years
    2007-2014 after which he was the most effective penalty area goalscorer since Gerd muller (but with more flair and technique-this is a no brainier)

    Gerd muller 2.0(post 2015 Cristiano Ronaldo)


    Notice the goat level ball control he used in this goal-form is temporary while class is permanent


    When a player in his decline can still maintain a goal a game ratio and 10-15 assists in a season ,turn up with big performances against juventus,Atlético Madrid,Bayern Munich in big matches while at the same time conjure up moments of pure genius like the above I think it’s completely inexplicable that he can be compared to prime Schevchenko,van nistelrooy,Raúl,post peak r9,Suarez,ibrahimovic

    CR7 still remains a higher quality player than these players in his decline IMO
    Which just goes to show that his prime was otherworldly.i don’t mind somebody saying Messi or maradona were more devastating or cruyff was a more complete player but when his prime is lowered to the level of players like Romario or Van Basten I think it becomes rather ridiculous

    Note:
    @ko242 I am still waiting for you to present some of dinhos best league performances.
    I don’t believe a lasting legacy can be built on a few games vs great opposition
    If so we can conclude zidane is the greatest international player in football history on the basis on what he did in a few games(this is something I’m sure you wouldn’t agree with so why does Ronaldinho get put on such a high pedestal on the basis of a few games
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I find it hard to believe that a player who possesed the athletic and technical capabilities of a young Pele,managed to score over 100 goals in 83 matches in 1959 isn’t considered better than Di Stefano

    Personally I don’t think at any stage post 58 Di Stefano was equal to Pele.its really an apples and oranges comparison
    Di Stefano was merely mortal but pele a god amongst men
    ADS has two ballon dors in those years only because Pele wasn’t eligible
    Even before 1960 Pele set all time scoring records (in the Campeonato Paulista)

    I think puskas even hinted at being intimidated by ADS(something mentioned in your source)which explains why he let Di Stefano clinch the pichichi in 59
    In 59/60 it wasn’t even a contest (puskas was easily the best European player only behind Pele
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #14 carlito86, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    @Vegan10
    1959 was also the year he scored (if we are to believe eye witness accounts) one of the greatest goals in football history against juventus de Brazil.

    His total record in 1959 includes 104 goals in 127 matches (including 15 against the Brazilian military)
    I believe this is a all time record including friendlies (Messi holds the official record)
    Either way I’m not convinced ADS was ever at the level of pele (post 1958)
     
  15. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yes, compared to R9, Messi, and etc ... Romario and specially Rivaldo weren't as prolific. But it tells you something that you keep bad mouthing the state leagues in Brazil as amateur when these players landed in Europe and as I said, back then, were more prolific than they were in Brazil from day 1. Obviously something caught PSV's eyes back then about Romario because Brazilian players back then didn't really leave Brazil that young. Supposedly it was his performance in the Olympics. It is of my opinion that back then he could have landed straight at Barca and done well right away instead of years later. People forget these leagues, other than probably the Italian, weren't head and shoulders above everything else.

    As for Cryuff, not questioning his greatness, but how strong was the Dutch league back in the 60s and 70s anyways ? I mean, you talk about Brazil, but I'd imagine the Dutch league had no depth in terms of competition.
     
  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    You are talking about two different type of players and in completely different environments and settings.

    The idea that Di Stefano would not have won those Ballon d’Or’s had Pelé been eligible is purely conjecture and sounds like retrospective propaganda to boost Pelé to unsubstantiated higher grounds.

    Di Stefano earned his first award in 1957 when Pelé was unknown to the world. The second award was in the midst of Pelé’s ascension as one of the top stars in world football.

    It’s not unprecedented for a South American (Maradona 1979-80) playing in his continent to have been regarded as the best in the continent and world by some South American/European press voices and reputable sources (El Mundo; Guerin Sportivo; El Gráfico; France foot2; El Pais - Alfredo Relano) but that’s not the case with Pelé in 1959. There is no document I’ve come across that leads me to believe that. The first signs of press voices that point to that direction is in 1961. In early 1960 he’s arguably the most famous player, this is stated by El Gráfico, but it’s not an established consensus that depicts him as the premier player in the game yet.

    In regards to Di Stefano being comparable to Pelé; I think this becomes a very difficult comparison. It’s been done before by witnesses of both sides around 1980 by El Gráfico, but I’m inclined to believe (and this is hearsay of course) that Jose Manuel Moreno may have been better than both. I don’t think Di Stefano was as precocious as Moreno or Pelé, but I think over time as a team player and leader, once he reached his total evolution, under the right circumstances in Madrid, he eclipsed them both.

    In any event, we must again not jump the gun and speculate about what’s still and probably will forever be certain facts that are in the dark.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It does not matter. He was already performing and producing against big teams.

    In contrast to Maradona in 1979 who had 0 goals and quite probably 0 assists against teams of note (including club friendlies). His goals at international level roll blanks.
     
  18. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    What you consider big games performances is laughable. The fact that you consider Ronaldo's game against Roma 07 and Roma 08 on par with Ronaldinhos performances is ridiculous. They won 7-1 against Roma. You could hardly call it a game. The same way I would not judge Messi's performance against Bayer Leverkusen an all time performance given he scored 5 goals in a game which Barcelona scored 7 goals in that match.
    And you remain to be the only one on this forum who thinks that Ronaldo had a big time performance against Chelsea in the 08 CL final.
     
    Danko repped this.
  19. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Unprecedented??? On par with the greatest??? WTF??!!!
    Don't get it twisted. I never said Ronaldinho had some lasting legacy. I said the amount of times he performed at a high level against the best teams in the World in such a short time 2-3 years is pretty much as good as anyone else. A far cry from what you are implying. I stand by that statement.
    I have to look at those Cruyff games again. But as much as I've watched Cruyff I haven't seen him have that impact against the many of the best teams in that short time although I would admit he had more impressive games against more good teams.
     
  20. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Lasting legacy???!! I never said that!!
    And apparently you didn't read or at least comprehend what I said. I have a different criteria than you do in judging primes. Which is fine.
     
  21. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    #21 ko242, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    For what it's worth, there was a system in place in Alfredo's day that prevented players from winning the balon d'or twice in a row. I do know that Di Stefano was a top scorer in Spain multiple times. More than twice. And with his style of play and being the main player of the team (Madrid), I wouldn't be surprised if he had won it at least 2 more times.
    I know there aren't many games of Di Stefano but being in a position to to help Madrid choose players must mean something.
    But I still put Pele clearly above Di Stefano from what I've seen. Pele could play with the same intelligence of Di Stefano but also run through 3 players of he wanted to. Di Stefano didn't have that threat to his game on the level of the likes of Pele, Maradona, Messi, and Cruyff. Hence why I rate him behind such players
     
  22. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
  23. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I voted for Ronaldinho because I like him better.
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    State Leagues were very strong back then, just haters says the opposite, and the National were next step compared with Argentinian and Uruguayan Leagues.

    With the word Elias Figueroa, probably the best defender of South America (all-time) elect three times the best Player of South America in 70's that played for the 'champion' Peñarol too:


    7:28
    nice interview... It is clear that he has the Brazilian league with the highest esteem.
     
  25. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    ^^ Yea @carlito86 is the only person considering CR's 2008 final against Chelsea a great performance. He scored a goal but then proceeded to miss a penalty in the shootout and got bailed out big time. Just because they won the game it doesn't mean missing a penalty in the shootout isn't catastrophic. And I watched that final and didn't find that he had a big influence and dominated that finals with his dribbling, passing etc.
     

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