Country with the biggest gap between best and second best ever?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by schwuppe, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Mexico in the 70s, when they lost to Haiti and Tunisia? Would love to hear what pointed out to their competitiveness.



    1.30 on sums up Mexico in the 70s.

    In the 60s they had some decent results, but every analysis of their quality starts with saying they weren't up to WC-standards.

    Course not equally bad. Finland was more bad. :D I don't think I was making a comparison between the two.

    Not sure what you're referring to specifically, but I'd say the proper maxim is more like "mediocre until proven otherwise". Judging by your evaluation of Aguinaga and his cross-country achievements, I'd say we're on the same page.

    I notice they gave a FIFA order of merit to the guy who bought the 86 WC. LOL FIFA.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I guess the issue was not so much whether they were up to World Cup standards, but why Hugo Sanchez his national team exploits (if he was able to play!) aren't at Mexico standards, so to speak.

    The Haiti game you mention was a friendly and only one of eleven encounters they lost. Crucially, it is not recognized by FIFA as an A-international (source: their own website) and it is also not included in the 'World Football Elo' list.

    The 1978 Tunisia loss is of course bad (the whole tournament was even for their standards very bad), but those things happen to even the more established countries (Spain losing to Nigeria in 1998?), hence results should be seen over a longer period of time.


    Elo ranking of Mexico:

    1960s: 19th
    1970s: outside top 20 (top 30)
    1980s: outside top 35
    1990s: 16th
    2000s: 13th
    2010s: 13th

    World Cup qualifications:

    1960s: 3/3 (1 as host)
    1970s: 1/2
    1980s: 1/3 (as host)
    1990s: 2/2
    2000s: 3/3
    2010s: 2/2

    CONCACAF Championships (wins/total)

    1960s: 1/4 (+ one 2nd place)
    1970s: 2/3
    1980s: 0/2 (only 3rd in 1991)
    1990s: 3/4
    2000s: 2/6
    2010s: 2/4

    Qualification for Olympic Games
    (in the case of Mexico an important tournament)

    1960s: 2/3
    1970s: 2/2
    1980s: 0/3
    1990s: 2/2
    2000s: 1/3
    2010s: 2/2


    See?
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think Yashin, when taking Russia instead of Soviet Union plus subsequent states (including Ukraine), can be a very good call to be a prominent mention. It's always difficult to compare goalies to outfield players I suppose (and that applies to Schmeichel and Michael Laudrup too of course) but it seems reasonable to think of a clear and fairly significant gap in Yashin's favour and even more so when judging position by position (as in comme's greatest X of all time lists) or general 'greatness'.

    Okocha, I'm not quite so sure about compared to other Nigerians but it's still a reasonable call I think.

    Lewandowski is a no for me, as I'd even think of probably Deyna as Poland's best player, and there are other notable options too including UEFA 'Golden Player' Lubanski. I know it could be looked at in terms of Lewandowski's impact in Germany compared to how Deyna did at Man City, but I think that would be very unfair and a prime to prime comparison is better even if Deyna was 'only' playing in the Polish league (plus Boniek for example did make a notable mark in Serie A and the EC and Super Cup). Maybe it would also be unfair to completely focus on how they did and how they played in major games with Poland too (hugely in favour of Deyna) but yeah I'd really rule Lewandowski out to be honest myself.

    I was wondering whether, as good as some other Romanian players have been (feasibly qualifying as 'world class' in some periods), Hagi can be an option to be in the mix. Probably it's not easy to get an idea about Dobrin but based on what is on YouTube I'd feel my impressions don't quite match up to some of the most complimentary descriptions of him. Maybe that is also an incomplete or unfair analysis though, but it's difficult to get a better idea with any certainty I think. On the International stage for Romania, Dobrin isn't a similar case to Deyna, but then Poland had the better side in general so the platform is different.
     
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  4. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Cuauhtemoc Blanco is surely the most talented player that Mexico has given (and the most complete too), even back in 1997 it was said that if he continued with the same performances and consistency he would surpass Hugo Sánchez ... but we know that it was not like that and "Hugol" is the best Mexican player in history by a clear difference.
    By the way, Blanco is the best player in the Mexican national team ever.

    As a curious fact ... one of the most skillful players that Mexico has had (even superior to Gio Dos Santos or Carlos Vela easily), was Jesús "Cabrito" Arellano. Arellano had an impressive individual ability to beat opponents easily, however, he reached his best performance peak between 1998-2000 but never again was consistent and show that impressive peak.
     
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  5. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    The period when most of the best Mexican players emerged was in the 80's until the early 2000's. It was even the best time of the Mexican league.
     
  6. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Omar Bravo and Guille Franco are very far from Cuauhtemoc Blanco and Jared Borguetti. Even Luis de la Fuente and Horacio Casarín are historical top 5 material, especially Luis de la Fuente.

    On the other hand, I understand the popularity that Jared Borguetti has outside of Mexico but it is very questionable that forwards like Luis Roberto Alves Zague and Carlos Hermosillo are better than him.
     
  7. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Thanks for the info about Arellano. Yes, I did not insist on Cauhtemoc Blanco's case as everybody is sensed to know him. As for Garcia (Luis Garcia Postigo) and Aspe, I have the feeling that they are overlooked (as far as I'm concerned, it's the period of time when I watch the most of football and sports in general (Eurosport etc.).

    Perhaps I'll go back on H. Sanchez in European Cup (@PuckVanHeel especially since his reply which I don't agree with everything but make several good points/ observations ofc : I'll talk only about what I "disagree with" or how I see things differently).
     
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  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #33 carlito86, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
    Depending on how great one considers Pelé to actually be (I noticed some posters put him in his own category of greatness) than perhaps a case could be made the greatest difference is between Pelé and 2nd place whoever that maybe (garrincha/zico/R9)

    Obvious cases that strangely haven’t been mentioned is
    George Best:northern Ireland
    Puskas:Hungary
    (Even though hidegkuti and kocsis were all time legends even they admitted they were no match for him)
    Arsenio Erico: Paraguay
    Figueroa: Chile
    (Others like Suarez/francescoli were just pretenders to his throne)
     
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  9. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Sorry, I meant losing to Haiti as losing their WCQ to Haiti. I can see now Mexico actually won that particular Haiti game, but I'd say taking second spot in a qualifier group is worse than losing in a single match-up.

    A bit disingenuous to compare Mexico to a Spain, though. This isn't a team that happened to hit a poor game at the wrong time. What we see in that clip is a team that has no business being at that level, the nadir of a series of performances that went back decades. That could just as well be an African or Asian team.

    Anyway, I can see how those statistics back your viewpoint. I'd like to remind most of those results are against other CONCACAF teams, though. I just read an interesting article which gave an explanation on the improvement of the Mexican NT in the 60s. In retrospect this explanation is a no-brainer, but it's something that needs to be said aloud. Their improvement was linked to the all-around rise of defensive football during this time. What this means is that their results were the result (heh) of them learning to park the bus rather than a rise in their playing standards.

    Keeping that in mind, I'd like to carefully put forth the theory that any seeming poorer results in the 80s might be because the smaller teams in CONCACAF finally learned the art of parking the bus themselves.

    As for ELO, there are several factors to consider. One is the emergence of other nations, which means one result can cause a team to rise or fall more spots than they would have before. ELO also isn't that reliable on an intercontinental level. But the most important factor is that the ratings are built on past results. In Mexico's case, it's actually the 70s that brought them down, with the nadir being reached after they bottled the 82 qualifiers. The home WC in 86 caused them to skyrocket into the top 10, so I'd say the 80s actually brought about a significant improvement in Mexican fortunes. The Olympic team is the Olympic team, of course, and not the A team.

    Anyway, would love to hear if @tLB Odiseo has more to offer on the Mexican NT during 60-90. How would you rate them in comparison to Euro or SA-sides?
     
  10. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Dobrin is a made-up great, like that other "all-timer" Apolzan. I don't know why, but Romania has a particularly strong culture for this type of fabrication. It even happened at state-level. Remember those Romanian golden boot contenders from the 80s? This also extends to comments made by their players, like Hagi saying something like Mutu is the best player of his generation or some such, or how some NT rando should play in a CL-winning side.

    The go-to explanation is always that Romania had some legend-class player, but UEFA refused to acknowledge them because they had a beef towards Romania. There was a conspiracy to undermine Romania in particular. Not the USSR or Bulgaria or someone else, only Romania. I think it has something to do with their domestic football being such a corrupt shit-show for so long. They're projecting, and think it was that way everywhere else, too.
     
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  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Best player of his generation is an exaggeration but in Italy Adrian mutu was definitely better than ballon D’Or winner kaka in 2007 for example

    I don’t know about Dobrin being overrated but he was unlucky to not play in WC 70 due to some internal conflict with the NT
    The World Cup was the stage for stars back then to gain wider recognition
    It is why Moreno and Di Stefano fell
    short in some people’s estimations because they were apparently not proven at the highest level

    The perception of Dobrin May also have been different if his move to los blancos had not been blocked by the communist president Ceaucescu (who considered him a too important propaganda assest to the sell)
    Dobrin was listed by some old timers as one of the greatest dribblers ever but without or lack of footage it is difficult to substantiate that claim
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, I don't think Aguinaga his record against foreign clubs and teams passes the test, at any point in his career.

    The snowy and cold Finland is good in other things ;) :p

    http://www.medalspercapita.com/
    https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores


    Correct, that's why I said it has to be seen over a longer period of time.

    Yes, but for Hugo Sanchez his national team exploits (in comparison to his own countrymen) that still bears relevance.

    Mexico didn't do well at Concacaf level in the 1980s.

    I didn't do an exact count but they played fairly often against intercontinental opposition in the 1970s...
    https://www.eloratings.net/Mexico

    I stopped counting in 1971 because I was already above ten.

    Thanks for your reply.
     
  13. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    It is evident that the Mexican national team has shown good level and more important a greater consistency, from the decade of the 90's.

    The problem is that the team has failed to take the next step, which we thought we would achieve in this decade but it has not been like that either.

    If we only talk about the Mexican national team, in the 90's there were good achievements, for example, in the Copa América tournament, the final against Argentina was reached in 1993, third places were achieved in 1997 and 1999, won the Confederations Cup in 1999, there were great performances against Brazil in some occasions since usually Mexico and Brazil were always in the group stage of Copa America, 3 CONCACAF gold cups were won and in the 1994 and 1998 World Cups very good performances were made in the group phase, in fact we had everything and the advantage to beat Bulgaria and Germany in the round of 16 but we failed.

    In the 2000's, the consistency remained and something very important is that it began to send Mexican players regularly to Europe, which had good performances as Ricardo Osorio and Pavel Pardo in the German league, (in addition to Rafael Márquez as one of the best defenders at a global level and also Gerardo Torrado played in the Spanish league), other players like Carlos Salcido, Jared Borgetti, Francisco Fonseca, Omar Bravo, Hector Moreno, Andrés Guardado ... and the player we thought was going to mark an era, who was Nery Castillo … besides, the youth champions like Dos Santos, Vela and company.

    However, in this decade in terms of results we have fallen since the Copa America is not being taken on and we have had very bad results there and all those Mexican players who play in Europe do not see hunger in the national team.

    According to your question ... in Mexico it has always been considered that the national teams of Argentina and Brazil are above, without a doubt, but we have also always considered that Mexico could compete with the other South American teams for the 3rd place in the best of America, however, the performances shown in recent years in Copa América and in the last World Cup have made us look very bad and that is where Mexico is considered even lower than teams like Chile, Uruguay or Colombia (you guys how do you see this comparison?)

    And well, it's very clear that Mexico does not produce as many great players as Chile, Colombia or Uruguay.

    All this is according to the Mexican national team, because if we talk about the Mexican league it has to be approached from another perspective to make the comparisons.
     
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  14. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    The story I heard about Dobrin in 1970 was that he fainted in the Mexican sun. :D Anyway, I don't think a European player from the 60s-70s needed WC exposure to earn their reputation. People would have seen him play in the qualifiers, Euros and friendlies.

    I checked some of the WS issues leading up to WC 1970, and they do describe him as "highly rated" and "real glossy, top drawer inside forward", so I may have been too harsh on him.

    If Sanchez was seen as not being as effective for the NT, it might have something to do with the fact he barely played for them during his peak years in Europe. He was a disappointment in 86, but I would assume opponents focused on eliminating him in particular, being Mexico's main weapon and all.

    I checked Mexico's results against Euro/SA opponents 60-90, and couldn't really see a marked difference in performance during this period. They often lost against the top teams, but other times they drew games or won. How's that for expert analysis? :D
     
  15. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I did read the Mexican team leading up to WC 1994 was then considered their best ever.

    I remember Nery Castillo from Copa 2007. Dude looked like a beast, then went to Donetsk and melted down.

    In my estimation, Mexico hasn't dropped down in quality in recent years. It just happens that SA is going through a surge ATM, with Uruguay, Chile and Colombia all having much stronger teams than 10-15 years ago. Mexico has been amazingly consistent in WCs, so I think you guys have more reason to be proud than frustrated. The last WC was hot and cold. Mexico looked like one of the best teams in the tournament against Germany, then bottled against a super-mediocre Sweden. That game would have been the key to the QFs.

    Would love to hear your view on the Mexican league, as well, especially in comparison to other SA-leagues.
     
  16. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Mexico has won more World Cup matches than any country in history, apart from Brazil and Germany.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsup: Interesting to know and see.


    That would be appreciated, thanks (also who would be the main alternatives outside of Marquez).

    :)
     
  18. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Khoren Oganesian was a good player in the 80s for the Soviet Union.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Dobrin never got a single vote for the Ballon d'Or, which puts him at the back-foot compared to other Romanians (Hagi received in six years votes, Mutu only in 2003 and @carlito86 has a case 2007 was also excellent).

    I personally think Hagi is comfortably a class apart for them (in the same way M. Laudrup stands out for Denmark in the way he belonged to the very best of his generation imho but agree that's not a case of 'country with one world class player').

    This is interesting in that respect:
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/roempoy.html

    Also with him I think one has to look at what he did against the (strong) foreign opponents. For his clubs and country team (not only measured by goals ofc). Sadly he didn't play at the 1970 World Cup, that data would be interesting as a back up.
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Dobrin was allegedly more of a playmaker/CMF in the Romania league compared to Hagi who was often used as a forward/AM
    A G+A statiscal analysis (if it were available) would favour Hagi more(perhaps unfairly)

    I always wondered how he scored so many as a playmaker but this explains it.
    In his early days Hagi most probably functioned in a role similar to maradona in Argentina particularly for boca 80 or platini in Euro 84
     
  21. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Vassilis Hatzipanagis for Greece?
     
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  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Definitely,without question unless someone might say Karagounis is the best because of fluke euro 2004 MVP lol
     
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  23. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    That's already more than Hatzi has.

    I'm thinking Greece's best ever will be contested between Kostas Manolas and Sokratis Papapapapapopopopo...
     
  24. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I guess that had lot to do with Michael refusing to play for Denmark in 92 Euros. IIRC he arrogantly claimed they won’t win shit.
     
  25. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    #50 Ceres, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
    The problem with Michael Laudrup (unlike his younger brother Brian) was that he usually only performed at 25% for Denmark in friendlies and qualifers, except when Denmark was playing against the big countries or at the Euro and WC finals, but otherwise he seemed much more motivated to play for his club rather than his country.

    His very best NT performances were at the Euro-84 (where Denmark reached the Semi-finals and finished 3rd) , the WC-86 (though Denmark only reached the Round of 16 ) ... and then right after he had returned to the NT where I guess he felt that he then had something to prove ... in the Final that Denmark won 2-0 against Argentina at the 1995 FIFA Confederations Cup (so he did win a Cup with Denmark, just not the Euro or WC) ... but his absolute best NT performance he gave just before he retired after the WC-98 where Denmark reached the Quarter-finals (and lost 2-3 to Brazil in a brilliant match), and where both he and his brother then were selected for the WC-98 FIFA All-star team :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_FIFA_World_Cup#All-star_team
     

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