Copa Libertadores 2017

Con miedo pasa el Cuervo. Paranaense y San Lorenzo anotan al mismo tiempo, y con ésto la Católica queda fuera.

Otro gol de Paranaense. Con esto, los Cuervos están fuera.

Uy, la Católica responde. 2-2 y los Cuervos otra vez adentro. Si la Cato mete otro, se meten ellos. Si Paranaense mete otro, se meten ellos. Si San Lorenzo mete gol y también marca Paranense, Flamengo queda fuera.

Final de grupo increíble hoy.

Gol de Paranaense! 2-3. Qué últimos 20 minutos tan espectaculares.

 

Ay mamita Caruzzo se perdió el gol de la victoria para los Cuervos.

Right now:

FLA 10/+5
PAR 10/-1
SLO 8/-1
CAT 5/-3

Estamos en los descuentos.

 

GOL! En la última jugada... Belluschi!

SLO 10/0
PAR 10/-1
FLA 9/+4
CAT 5/-3

Lo dejaron fuera al Mengão... en el último segundo.

Tremendo final de grupo. Tremendo.

PS: El Papa Panchito habrá estado rezando.

 

This reminded me to the group of San Lorenzo back in 2014, when they also scored in the last minute against another carioca team (Botafogo) to barely qualify. Also back then the other match involved a chilean team losing with a high score (unión española to Independiente del Valle 4-5) that was changing all the time just like today!

The coincidences are mind-boggling.

 

According to some Spanish articles that I came across online, both the draw for the Copa Sudamericana and Copa Libertadores will be held on the same day (June 14th).

I know and understand all of the new changes and rules for the Libertadores beginning with the draw of the Round of 16 and up to the Finals. It's also my understanding that those same new changes and rules will apply to the Sudamericana, starting with Round of 16 play and up to the Finals.

What I don't know is the new changes and rules for both the Draw of the Second Stage and the Round of 16 for the Sudamericana. I have tried Wikipedia, the CONMEBOL website, and googling around, but didn't have any luck. Do you guys know what those new changes/rules are or know of a site that has that information?

I know this post is related to the Copa Sudamericana and I have posted this in their thread, but I'm posting this here as well in case someone isn't watching the other thread and can help me out with this.

Basically, what I want to know is the following:

1. Will there be seeding involved in the Draw for the Second Stage and how will it be determined?
   • Will it by rankings updated with both clubs' current league and copa performance?
   • How will clubs coming in from Libertadores be incorporated?
2. If seeding is not used, how will home field be determined for the second leg?
   • i.e. randomly selected?
3. Will more than one pot be used when drawing out the teams and if so, by what category will the teams be separated by?
   • i.e. seeding, region, libertadores clubs, etc?
4. Will a draw be done to determine what winners from the Second Stage will face each other in the Round of 16 or will that draw be done once the Second Stage is completed?
5. If the Draw for the Round of 16 will be done at a later date, what is that date and will the answers from questions 1 to 3 be the same for this draw?

Appreciate any assistance you guys can offer.

 

Hbo

 

Peñarol did its part, beating Wilstermann, but Tucumán cannot score to save their lives.

 

There will still be some sort of incentive to finish first in the group rather than second, because the better "1st placed" club you are among the groups, the more opportunity you have to play at home in the second leg throughout the Knockout rounds.

I do agree with not liking the "random" selection for the Knockout Rounds. With all due respect to Brasil and Argentina, considering the number of allocations per country and the current clubs that have qualified for the Knockout (5 for Brasil and 4 (possible 5) for Argentina, this might as well be called the Copa Argentina/Brasil Libertadores Invitational. That would only leave 6 clubs from the rest of Conmebol to join the Round of16. And with interest and $$$ talking, I'm sure they'll be very few match-ups selected where either clubs from Argentina or Brasil will face each other.

I would like this type of "random" draw only if each country had the same allocations but yes, I know that money talks and that would never happen but I think there should be a rule in place where if a club from Brasil or Argentina has qualified by winning the previous Libertadores or Sudamericana, they should subtract an allocation accordingly. That plus determining on a yearly basis what country gets 7 berths (Brasil), 6 berths (Argentina), and 4 berths (rest of Conmebol) [or starting in 2019, 4 berths (Chile/Colombia), 3 berths (rest of Conmebol plus Mexico)] based on not just "commercial and sporting criteria" but how each country performed in the previous tournament.

Note: I would feel this way whether my country was receiving the most berths or not. In the end, that just my humble opinion and I don't really think anything will change that much going forward. I'm glad that the "rest of Conmebol" will at least have 4 berths for 2018 as Mexico apparently won't return until 2019.

 

6 out of 8 Brazilian teams to octavos.
4 out of 6 Argentine teams made it too.
Bolivia & Ecuador got two each.
Uruguay & Paraguay, one.

Surprisingly, Colombia and Chile didn't get any team through.
Less surprisingly, neither did Venezuela and Peru.

Brazil topped 5 groups, Argentina 3.
From what I gather, group winners will be seeded.

 

I don't agree. The worst league is Bolivian (without the shield of the altitude), then Venezuelan, then peruvian and then comes the chilean IMO.

 

Group winners will be seeded 1 to 8. Runners-Up will be seeded 9 to 16. Home field for the 2nd leg of all match-ups in the Knockout Round will go to the lower seed. For example, with Atlético Mineiro being the #1 seed, they would host the 2nd leg all the way up to the Final.

Note: Because the Draw will initially match up Group Winners with Runners-Up, all Group Winners are guaranteed to host the 2nd leg in the Round of 16. That being said, having this 'home field advantage' and with all Group Winners coming either from Argentina or Brasil, there is a high probability that the Libertadores would only consist of clubs from Argentina and Brasil in the Quarterfinals and going forward. Hopefully, that won't be the case and there'll be some upsets.

 

Just stats. Previous five years:

2012 :
2 Chilean teams to R16 (Unión Española and U. de Chile)
0 teams from Peru
0 teams from Venezuela

2013:
0 teams from Chile
1 Peruvian team to R16 (Garcilaso)
0 teams from Venezuela

2014:
1 Chilean team to R16 (Unión Española)
0 teams from Peru
0 teams from Venezuela

2015:
none got a team through

2016:
0 teams from Chile
0 teams from Peru
1 Venezuelan team to R16 (Táchira)

So 3 for Chile, 1 for Peru, 1 for Venezuela = it's a bit more surprising (less expected?) for Chile to get none through.

 

I preferred the way it used to be. Now the teams that have already won the group have no reason to play their best team for the last game. Before, that final game was still meaningful to get the weakest (on paper) rival.

 

If a club had already won the group with one game left to play, they would still want to sum up as many points as possible in order to get the lowest seed, which would mean that they'd have a better chance of hosting the 2nd leg in as many rounds in which they advance to. A great example if River Plate in Group 3. They won the group with one game left; they had 13 pts. In the last round of group play, they lost which was their first loss. If they had won or even tied, they would be the #1 seed and thus would have had 'home field advantage' throughout the Knockout Rounds. However, because they lost, they are the #4 seed which is still really good... but if they were to face the #1, 2, or 3 seed, they would have to play the 1st leg at home. And depending on how the draw goes, they could face anyone of those clubs as early as the Quarterfinals.

 

I too wasn't too happy with the adaptation of the UEFA draw system, but we'll have to see the dice roll. Frankly, after mapping out the round of 16 for 2017 if 2017 followed the old system, this would've been the bracket, based on the final group stage ranking:




1 Atlético Mineiro
16 Nacional

8 San Lorenzo
9 Godoy Cruz

4 River Plate
13 Atlético Paranaense

5 Palmeiras
12 Barcelona

2 Lanús
15 Jorge Wilstermann

7 Botafogo
10 Guaraní

3 Grêmio
14 The Strongest

6 Santos
11 Emelec

This would have been an interesting bracket. Atlético Mineiro, the #1 team overall, would have possibly faced either Palmeiras or River Plate before the final. Alternatively, if River and San Lorenzo advanced, they would've met in the semifinals.

On the other side, Grêmio or Santos and Botafogo may have met in the semifinals. If this happened, and if Palmeiras and Atlético Mineiro advanced to the semifinals, we would have had an all-Brazil semifinals.

If Grêmio, Botafogo, or Santos advanced to the semifinals with River and San Lorenzo advancing as well, we would have had an all-Brazil and an all-Argentina semifinal pair, and CONMEBOL would have stepped in to mix up such an outcome to avoid a same-country final.

With the new system, it's likely we'll get one same-country matchup with both Brazil and Argentina, as Godoy Cruz and Atlético Paranaense were runners-up. There is a mathematical possibility, albeit small, that the quarterfinals will be a Brazil & Argentina affair, if the group winners all advance. Should this occur, same-country matchups would be promising, with a possible Palmeiras vs. Santos or River Plate vs. San Lorenzo giving us crosstown confrontations.

 

I didn't like the seeding system tbh, it was quite unfair for those teams that landed in a hard group and couldn't get that many points. Many of the teams that used to get #1 seed had laughable groups (like Boca in 2015) and it didn't reflect their true strength.

As said above with this system some teams played the subs in final games (eg River), but you can't have everything I guess.

 

IMO the new system has taken away from the last day of group play, and we've seen more games where the teams were ok with just moving on.

 

You guys are probably right...the more I think about, I think the home field advantage is more highly regarded and sought out for clubs in leagues that haven't had much success in the tournaments... I might even be just the clubs in my league (Bolivia) . Because to be the best, you beat the best regardless of when you play where.

 

Avanzaron a la siguiente ronda 7 equipos de Brazil, 4 de Argentina y los restantes se dividen en 2 de bolivia, 2 de ecuador uno de paraguay.