Copa Libertadores 2017

You mentioned me. I personally do it in part because I live outside Brazil, so my loyalty towards Brazil is accentuated by my support of other Brazilian teams. I have (gasp!) even supported Corinthians when it faced other countries' teams, but it's become harder as my team has gone through a drought.

Still, if it's Flamengo or Cruzeiro or Atl.-Mg or Grêmio, I'd generally be supportive, as these are not direct rivals of my SPFC. Even Palmeiras, a cross-town rival - it's done well lately, and I would prefer it won over a team from Venezuela, Bolivia, Uruguay, or Argentina.

 

That would definitely depend not only on the individual but also on the country, as each country has a unique soccer culture.

4 years ago (I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning him), @RiverGaucho and I had a good conversation about club vs. country. He said that in his view, my support of other Brazilian squads was also due to the vastness of Brazil and the existence of many big-name clubs, whereas in his own country, while there are several clubs with successful histories, more than 75% of fans support either River Plate or Boca Juniors. And he said that he might be able to lend some support to other clubs, but not to Boca - ever.

This is RiverGaucho's viewpoint. I do remember the very old UOL soccer chatrooms from 1999-2000 (UOL also existed in Argentina at one point and they had similar chatrooms). On the night Boca beat Palmeiras through PKs in 2000, I entered that chatroom to see the reactions. A chatter said, "Soy de River, pero soy argentino - AGUANTE BOCA."

RiverGaucho would probably never do that, but apparently a few Argentines were happy that a team from their country won (and over a team from archrival Brazil). Would a finals win over Defensor Sporting, Sport Boys, or Zamora have elicited similar fervor? I would think not, but that's just me.

 

I'm sorry, but no river fan would ever pull for Boca, EVER. Ask @locoxriver or whoever, we HATE boca and no one who is a real river fan, or who is a socio or season ticket holder like me would root for boca. Even my mom who has been to the stadium once in the last 20 years hates boca and would never root for them.

And I know many boca fans, and they would never root for River. I know for a fact San Lorenzo desperately wanted River to lose the 2015 Copa Libertadores, they have a song which says "nosotros no somos como boca ni river plate"

So whoever wrote that is an idiot and not a real river supporter

 

Oh, there's no doubt that I would not celebrate a Flamengo, Cruzeiro, Botafogo, etc. Libertadores title win as hard as I would if it were SPFC. It's just not possible. But I would find some joy in it, because they are nonetheless representatives of Brazilian soccer.

Point taken. But if Godoy Cruz or Atlético Tucumán were to reach the final vs. Colo Colo or Cruzeiro, would you not side with GC or AT simply by virtue of these teams being from your country?

 

Again, good point. But people like me and you don't have this issue as our NT has a very rich history. For us, it's been 4 years since we won a cup of any kind; if we fail in 2018, we at least have a great chance to win the 2019 Copa América, which we're going to host. The Argentines, too - they haven't won a senior-level title since 1993, but they won several cups before then.

This is why I speculate a lot of Ecuadorians partied when Liga de Quito won it all in 2008.

 

Since Peruvian teams are so astoundingly poor, I root for all of them to do well just as a way to gain a little dignity for the country.

I rooted for Cienciano when they won the Sudamericana in 2003. They're a small team that hasn't won the Peruvian league once so it's not like they would hold it over us.

But I gotta say, I'd root against Alianza past, about, the quarterfinals. As much as I'd like to see a Peruvian team finally win the Libertadores, Alianza winning it would be a nightmare because they would never, ever, ever live it down. And with good reason.

 

With the duly noted exception of River and Boca fans, I think it's safe to say that we would all be somewhat happy if another club won BUT no way near the excitement if our club were to win, especially for those where it would be their club's first time; sadly, I'm one of them. But going back to what you said on how it "blows (your) mind" if someone were to "cheer just as hard for other clubs from their country as they do their own club," I would agree with @RiverGaucho in that they aren't really a supporter of that club or any club for that matter; they are just a fan of the game, which is fine but don't go on saying something different.

Now, I happen to agree with @Century's Best's point that the amount one 'cheers' for another club depends "not only on the individual but also on the country, as each country has a unique soccer culture", but I would add one more circumstance, which he basically shares as well and that on whether the individual lives within the country or outside of it.

That being said, I think it's great for 'hinchas' to root for other clubs when it comes to international competition but my feelings towards that is influenced heavily by the lack of performance our clubs (from the Bolivian League) have had in international competition when comparing to other leagues. Maybe (just maybe) my feelings would be different if a good amount of international success had been achieved by a couple of clubs, but I don't think so. Regardless, since that is not the case, as @Dominican Lou puts it, "I root for all of them to do well just as a way to gain a little dignity for the country."

Here's the bottom line from my perspective... I think it's great and it may just be the hinchas who live here in the states, but I'm rooting for each Bolivian club to do well in the Copa Libertadores and that includes, dare I say it, The Strongest (Bolivar's biggest rival)... but based on the comments I see in social media, the hinchas who live in Bolivia are hoping the 'other' clubs fail miserably.

I'm not here to judge (to each his own) but when it comes to International competition, we should stick together because each club's success outside will always be a positive... now, I understand that in other leagues (i.e. Argentina) some do root for the other clubs to lose but those clubs are already, if you will, "established" and have succeeded in outside competition already so at least wait until most of our clubs do the same before we start wishing the worst for them. Anyway, that's what I think.

Changing the subject a bit... At first, I didn't like the new format of not allowing a club qualify for both tournaments (Libertadores & Sudamericana) but I think this will help the Bolivian league in the long run because more clubs will get more experience of playing in International competitions. This of course will help other leagues as well and speaking of that, not only have I seen this somewhat early success in our clubs so far in the tournament but I've also seen it in the least successful clubs in other leagues as well. I've noticed that there has been more parity in both Copas this year than previously and because it's not only happening in the Bolivian league, I wonder if it's partially due to the change in format of the Copas (i.e. longer time frame).

 

"The question is would the Barcelona fans who partied when LDU won it party just as hard or more if Barcelona wonthe cup."

Sorry ,but no self respecting Barcelona fan partied when LDU won.I think they might have been a few that were glad an Ecuadorian club won a Copa,but that's where it ends.I know a few Ligas fans will disagree,but at that time Liga was trying to market the team as "Ecuadors team"which is totally false as Barcelona was,is and will continue to be the country's most popular team,and if you were to see when Barcelona plays away,you will see half the stadium wearing yellow.

 

I would not celebrate a Flamengo, Cruzeiro, Botafogo, etc. Libertadores title win as hard as I would if it were SPFC. It's just not possible. But I would find some joy in it, because they are nonetheless representatives of Brazilian soccer.



Point taken. But if Godoy Cruz or Atlético Tucumán were to reach the final vs. Colo Colo or Cruzeiro, would you not side with GC or AT simply by virtue of these teams being from your country?[/QUOTE]

I would say that I would "root" for Godoy Cruz or Atletico Tucuman in the sense I would be wanting them to win, but I do't know how much "rooting" I'd be doing. I can tell you a few weeks ago I was Peñarol-At Tucuman and was pulling hard for Tucuman, but the main reason for that is that one of my best friends is a die hard Nacional supporter.

I tend to root for teams in my local league far more, as these results effect me directly. Today for example, Newells faces Independiente with a chance to pull with in a single point of Boca at the top of the table. Considering the Superclasico is next Sunday, I desperately want to see Newells win and I may even actively cheer for them. Newell's is always the team I've preferred in Rosario and its impossible not to love Maxi Rodriguez, who in addition to be a legend for the Argentina NT, is an absolutely fabulous person off the field.

So while yes I think its easier for me to pull for a small team, I wouldn't root for say Lanus, who is a tiny club yet has grown in recent year and played many big games with my River and also they have an ex-River Jose Sand who has become a hate figure for River fans.

I also don't want to make this sound badly, but I think countries without a football culture tend to root for all clubs from their country. I'm obviously not saying Brazil lacks football culture, I just think Century's Best may be the exception rather than the rule. I think especially in a city like Porto Alegre I think this would be more profound as there are only two big teams there while there are many teams in Sao Paulo.

For example, Mexico. Mexico is a country that has hosted 2 world cups an couldn't even reach the semifinal, they have a massive inferiority complex especially when it comes to Argentina and Brasil, Argentina having eliminated them from two recent world cups. I know for a fact that many Monterrey supporters were openly rooting for Tigres against River int he 2015 Copa Lib Final, as it was almost a way to validate their football culture, which is poor on club and country level (national team never having won anything, while the clubs are really franchises like in the US and they change cities, names, colors, all the time)

I see this in the US as well where people tend to be fans of "MLS" as a whole rather than a club... People are always saying "what a good signing for the league" when a big name player goes there... Its like if River and San Lorenzo fans were cheering when Tevez returned to Boca, which is ludicrous. I think most MLS supporters root for any MLS team in the concacaf CL against liga mx opponents, and I mean actively root for them. This is of course "normal" since most MLS clubs have no history, so you could conceivably have more loyalty to the league or two american soccer than to a club. I find the whole NYC Derby between Red Bulls and the Man City affiliate to be laughable considering one team is 15 years old and the other just 1 year old (like how can hatred exist after 1 year, and who were those Man City affiliate fans supporting two years ago?)

 

I think we can't generalize. I see what you mean about Mexicans, but Mexicans are extremely proud, and theirs is a very competitive league. In Libertadores history, their clubs have given both mine and yours serious challenges. Chivas destroyed Boca Juniors 4-0 once. Cruz Azul reached the final once. In 2006, the same Chivas ended my São Paulo's home field unbeaten streak in Libertadores games which had started in 1987.

When I was in Brazil in 1999, I remember talking to some Corinthians fans, and some surprised me by saying they would support Palmeiras in the final vs. Deportivo Cali because Palmeiras, while a rival, was a Brazilian team. I was taken aback - Corinthians vs. Palmeiras is like Roma vs. Lazio, Real Madrid vs. Barcelona, etc.

I personally think that you and other Argentines would root for a Godoy Cruz over Palmeiras or Flamengo in a hypothetical Libertadores final not only because it's a small team from your country - but also because it is, after all, an Argentine team going against.... a Brazilian team. In certain cases, club & country do conflate.

 

Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree. I would tell you that I was in Rome for the 2015 Champions League Final on vacation, and both Roma and Lazio fans celebrated Juventus's loss, it was the first time they'd ever agreed on anything, but their hatred for the Old Lady brought them together. In Florence, Naples, and Torino the defeat were celebrated madly.

You think Atletico fans will root for Real Madrid in the Final after 4 years of heart break at the hands of the blancos? Not a chance.

Argentina is not like Brazil. I think Argentines take after the italians and spaniards and the uruguayans. The idea of Palmeiras fans supporting Corinthians seems unlikely, I know many Brazilians were celebrating Boca in 2012 Final, so I think you are taking a few random conversations you've had and giving them more importance, especially that Argentine who said he was a River fan, but was happy for Boca. I find the whole Corinthians/Palmeiras thing even more outlandish considering violence has gotten so bad that no away fans are even allowed in Sao Paulo derbies.

I'll share for you a passage from the Uruguayan author, and fanatic of Nacional, Eduardo Galeano in his great book "El Futbol a Sol y Sombra"

"Lo mismo ocurre en muchas otras ciudades también divididas por la mitad, En 1988, Nacional venció a Newells en la copa americana. Newell's es uno de los clubes se reparten los amores de la ciudad de Rosario, en el litoral de Argentina. Entonces, los hinchas del otro club, Rosario Central, desbordaron las calles de su ciudad festejando la derrota de Newell's ante un cuadro extranjero"

"Rare vez el hincha dice "Hoy juega mi club" mas bien dice "Hoy jugamos nosotros" ...

I think this is just more an Argentina/Uruguayan thing than Brazilian. For example, in the 2014 Copa Sudamericana, the most meaningful and memorable match for River supporters was the semifinal against Boca, not the Final against Atletico Nacional, a club River has no rivalry with. People still celebrate Barovero's penalty save against Gigliotti. Obviously, the victory over Boca would have been hollow had we lost the Final, but the most memorable match BY FAR was that semifinal series, the Final, while massively important, holds a different meaning than the semi.

In Argentina, we have a saying called "doble camiseta," and its not a compliment.

So yeah, you'll just keep on rooting for all Brailian clubs, and I'll keep on rooting for my team. As will the rest of River supporters.

 

Probably also because you have (if I am not mistaken) lived only in Argentina, so being at "home" only, your loyalties are strengthened. Being a Brazilian immigrant in the U.S.A. has an effect on one's understanding and definition of nationalism vis-a-vis sports. I'd rather have a team from my country win the Libertadores over a team from another. It still adds up to the total Brazilian tally.

Italians and Spaniards... well, you guys (no offense) are a bit hotheaded at times. It's definitely a trademark Latin thing. The northern Europeans like Germany and Britain are fanatical about the sport but they're less passionate in a "Latin" sense.

Oh well. As it is.

 

Perhaps. And I think for me as a fan of SPFC is that as much of a rivalry as SPFC has with both Palmeiras and Corinthians, it's not as bitter as it is between your team and Corinthians.

 

My personal opinion on all of this considering I'm Colombian is that my country doesn't have the luxury like others of having multiple upon multiple titles. If let's say each big team in Colombia had 2 titles a piece, then yeah I wouldn't be rooting for anybody else outside of Deportivo Cali.

The only team in my country that can boast more than one title is atlético nacional. When they won it last year, I wasn't angry, felt kind of good actually because they won me a lot of money. When Once Caldas won it back in 2004 I cheered big time, because that was a Cinderella type of win.

The only team that I wouldn't cheer for in a libertadores would be some team from second division that wears red.

 

Dang, they're still in 2nd? I thought they'd move right back into 1st.