Copa Libertadores 2012 [R]

It has happened to Colombian teams as well.

 

Si hubiera al menos un ranking de asociaciones o de equipos y no fuera un sorteo "dirigido" a lo Conmebol, hasta uno entendia lo de dos equipos de un pais con 3 representantes en el mismo grupo.. De la forma que esta, nadie entiende el porque...

 

I'm glad I am not the only one that thinks this is dumb. Why not just structure the group-stage draw so that having 2 clubs from the same country in the same group is impossible?? Fans want to see something different in the Copa Libertadores, not 2 teams that are probably sick of playing each other.

 

Although I would ideally like to see NO same-country matches in the group stage, what really is rather silly is the CONMEBOL rule that there cannot be a same-country final.

One day, there will be 4 semifinalists from a single country. What will CONMEBOL do then? Oh, they'll then meddle in the quarterfinals to make sure we definitely don't get a same-country final...

 

Makes way more sense two have two teams from the same country in the final que having two teams in the same group. I guess Libertadores can still learn some things from champions league.

 

I disagree.

If sometime in the future, Santos, SPFC, Internacional, and Vasco are all strong to the point that they rampage through the round of 16 and quarterfinals, will CONMEBOL do?

Or even if it's only 3 of them plus a non-Brazilian team. Then the non-Brazilian team is ousted. Brazilian final. What will CONMEBOL do? Will it start rearranging or quarterfinal matchups to lower the odds of same-country confrontations?

Will it then start re-seeding the round of 16 matchups regardless of the group stage results?

The same thing if it was Argentina. A Boca Juniores, Rio da Prata, Estudantes, and Independente final four, or three of them.

The awesome thing about such scenarios is that it'd go down in the history of these countries' leagues, not to mention the uniqueness of such confrontations in Libertadores lore.

 

Precisely....

That is the main issue with Conmebol, the improvisation and rule changes that create a suspicious environment for the competition... IMHO if they somehow:

1. Ranked/seeded the 38 teams before the group raffle,
2. Defined the brackets from QF to the final,

nobody will be arguing about this and that.... Two teams from the same country in the same group or in the final, luck and performance, that's it...

 

You are asking too much, because that would require CONMEBOL to do two separate draws, when all the contestants were known!

The main thing they could learn is about the schedule, they want to play in 5 or 6 months a tournament that everywhere else takes about the double of time... That and the Sudamericana taking the other half of the year makes the schedules even more congested.

I like the current format to decide the clashes in the Round of 16, I think it's the best thing CONMEBOL has done with the format.

 

why? You pick a ball out of pot 4, then have another bowl which indicates which group that playoff winner goes to. But only put the balls in the second bowl that correspond to groups which don't have any teams from either of the 2 countries involved in the playoff.

For e.g., if you pick "Winner G2" from the first bowl (Brazil 5 v Chile 3), then only put groups 2 and 7 in the second bowl since there are no teams from Chile or Brazil in those 2 groups.

 

Then you'll have an all-Brazilian final.

This rule is intended merely to reduce the probability of 2 teams from the same country meeting in the final, not eliminate the chance altogether. And I'm fine with that. The final is the grand spectacle and ideally should involve more than 1 country, whenever feasible.

Obviously if it is not feasible (e.g. 3 or 4 Brazilian teams reach the semis), then let things play out as normal. I wouldn't expect that to happen more than about once per decade though.

 

I think that is the nature of the beast, given that they want the big transfers to happen during the summer market in Europe and the tournament supposedly is the best talent showcase for the continent (I think that talented guys will be transferred regardless of performance, even without playing Libertadores).

But in a sense I agree with you, the 2/3 weeks added by the preliminary round does not help either. The smart solution would be to then go back to 32, even 24 teams and play a more open, direct elimination 64 team Sudamericana.

Think about it, properly scheduled a 32 team tournament (includign a group round) requires only 14 weeks so that gives you room to schedule around FIFA matchdays and other competitions. A 64 team direct elimination requires only 12 weeks. Conmebol scheduling trying to broadcast every single game and the preliminary rounds inflate the required 14 weeks to probably 20 or 22 weeks...

That is probably the only part they got right. But the brackets should be set all the way to the final IMHO.

 

I see, but wouldn't that complicate things to draw the groups?

To me it looks like the majority of the south americans players that go to Europe leave in the northern hemisphere summer probably the Libertadores should finish around the date it does now, but it should start way earlier, August or September maybe?

I agree that maybe it's time to analyze if the numbers of teams for each competition should be reduced maybe have the Libertadores with 16 teams in the Group Stage and the Sudamericana with 24 teams and Groups Stage too, both competitions could still have a qualifying round.

This is another issue CONMEBOL should address regardless the format, I think they would do better partly getting rid of FOX Sports monopoly with the broadcasting, wouldn't it make more sense if for example they sold the rights of paraguayan teams' matches and the finals to a paraguayan TV channels the chilean matches to chilean channels and so on, because it doesn't seem that besides the finals people don't care about matches that don't involve teams from their countries and there's where FOX Sports could come in.

They are, the only thing that may change is the semi-final depending on the amount of teams left of each country.

 

More complicated than now, yes. But still less complicated than, say, the FIFA World Cup finals draw.

32 teams compared to 16 doesn't make the tournament that much longer. We're talking a maximum of 14 matches instead of 12. And a 16-team Copa Libertadores would leave out a lot of the top teams (since there wouldn't be enough room for both the apertura and clausura champions from each league).

 

I was thinking of reducing the amount teams besides extending the schedule of the tournament(Which probably what CONMEBOL should address first), plus don't some countries have a single champion regardless of having Apertura/Clausura winners?

 

Leave the Libertadores as it is, a survival of the fittest tourney. The length and the amount of games is part of the excitment. IMO. To win it you have to cry tears of blood.

 

It would still be the same and not as troublesome to play rather than the matches themselves if the schedule was fixed that and the quality of the matches would probably increase.

 

Anyone want to list their group predictions on what we have so far?
For my group I say Boca takes it but not easily due to Flu. being in the way.

 

I say we will tank horribly... sold most of our key players. I'll be happy if we make it out of the group. Edu Vargas to Napoli, Rojas to Botafogo, Rodriguez to Benfica, Diaz and Gonzalez might go to Newell's... I hate my life.

 

I really doubt anyone will be going to Newell's. Diaz's salary was improved and I haven't really heard any rumors about Gonzalez going anywhere for a while.

Rodriguez hasn't left yet and it's not a complete deal with Benfica yet.

I would be worried about replacing Rojas, though. Abarca could've been his replacement but now he's going to Twente.

 

Hasta el momentos los únicos "confirmados" que se han ido son Rojas y Vargas. Rodríguez a veces ni siquiera era titular, siendo un jugador bueno no me preocuparía tanto.

 

I agree for the most part when I get home I will my predictions. As you can tell I cant wait.

 

Heh, that would be a first.

That group should be interesting, looking towards Caracas-Peñarol in the qualifying.

What's the "group of death" this year? Group 2? Group 3? Group 7 maybe?