Copa America 2016 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'Copa América 2016 - Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, May 4, 2016.

  1. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    They are saving Geiger for a later key match. Not wanting him to have any problems early on, hence the blow-out easy match.

    PH
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Bascunan (CHI) for USA v Paraguay
    Argote (VEN) for Colombia v Costa Rica

    My understanding is that there is no way Cunha is going to touch the field at this tournament. So we're left with Vargas and Martinez--again, probably the two least experienced referees--as the only announced referees with no matches thus far. Vargas can't do Group D, so I think he fits in on Ecuador v Haiti, otherwise he probably just got a real nice vacation to the United States. I have no clue where they will use Martinez, if at all.
     
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  3. Fanison

    Fanison New Member

    May 8, 2012
    Cunha will make a game in the tournament, and I would say to wait for the next of group B ;).
     
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  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Wow. Given everything I've read about what was happening in Uruguay, that's quite surprising!
     
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  5. Thegreatwar

    Thegreatwar Member

    May 28, 2015
    New England
    Are there any English articles on the situation?
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Not to my knowledge. I've just googled "Cunha and Penarol" and translated a few of them.
     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    VARGAS (BOL) for Ecuador v Haiti
    CUNHA (URU) for Brazil v Peru

    Martinez is the last referee without an assignment. Luckily, Uruguay v Jamaica is meaningless now. That doesn't mean it still couldn't be a disaster, given the two teams, but at least it would be a meaningless disaster. Argentina v Bolivia also might be less than competitive, too, as an alternative.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    So Martinez ends up on Mexico-Venezuela. He gets Fletcher as an AR, replacing Ramirez who joined the Panamanian crew.

    Lamouroux comes off the reserve list, along with Parker as AR2, to get the Uruguay-Jamaica match.

    Apparently "reserve" was just a joke.
     
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  9. Fanison

    Fanison New Member

    May 8, 2012
    At the end, the reserves were only Villarreal and Dopico (which was main, in initial list), But who knows they still manage the game for third place, let's wait and see.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    This is second- and third-hand information below, so take it with some degree of skepticism.

    Several days prior to the Brazil-Peru match there was discussion and a push by some from CONMEBOL to use AARs for the semifinals and Final. This idea was met, as you might imagine, with some resistance because almost every referee at the tournament has no experience with AARs or being an AAR (the Brazilian officials being the major exception, I think). Also, such a system would involve combining trios, rather than using a prearranged quintet like in UEFA. Nonetheless, it is my understanding that at least one major player in the refereeing assigning process was pushing this hard.

    I have no way of knowing which way the decision would have fell on introducing AARs at this tournament if it was taken without any major controversy happening. But I would surmise that if it was a possibility, the goal in the Brazil-Peru match would push the decision heavily in the affirmative direction. Bottom line is that you should stay tuned: we may see something crazy (at least from a referee perspective) happen in this tournament.
     
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  11. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The way this tournament has been run, that wouldn't surprise me at all. This whole tournament from an organizational and refereeing standpoint has been a total farce.

    This tournament has been a pure money grab and has no sporting or competitive value. I've never figured out why it was so necessary to have a Copa Centenario in the first place. If they wanted to celebrate the centenary of the Copa they should have just pushed back last year's tournament in Chile to this year.

    If you're gonna celebrate the centenary of a competition that has always been in South America, why move it out of South America? That would be like celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Euros in Africa or Asia.
     
  12. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    $$$$$$$ Check the attendance figures and compare to the last Copa. I've even heard that there is talk of moving the Copa to the United States permanently.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    So with the understanding that the assigning at this tournament is a bit bewildering and that CONMEBOL seems to run the show mostly, any guesses on who gets the knockout matches?

    I'd say Geiger and Garcia get used next round in the QFs where their teams aren't involved. So probably Peru-Colombia for Geiger and Argentina-Venezuela for Garcia. Roldan seems to make sense on the US-Ecuador game and maybe Loustau on (presumably) Mexico-Chile.

    Aguilar for one semi and a wildcard CONMEBOL referee for the other.

    Given the way politics seems to work in CONMEBOL, I'd pencil in Lopes for the Final right now.

    Third place name can come out of a hat.
     
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  14. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Given that Uruguay are out, why not Fedorczuk? He did really well in his match IMO. Of course I expect his
    countryman to be released.

    PH
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    You've always been the one who has stressed that we should look at politics strongly--perhaps foremost.

    Brazil is the strongest federation. Brazil just got eliminated on a controversial call. CONMEBOL is, more or less, running things. Brazil will want "something." A Brazilian referee can obviously now do the final.

    That's how I arrive at my guess.

    You're absolutely right that, if decisions are made on merit, it could be and certainly should be someone else. But we know they aren't always made that way at international tournaments.
     
  16. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Oh, I absolutely agree about Brazil. I just thought that would be a given so didn't mention it.

    It wasn't the final I was thinking about for Fedorczuk, just a game in the knockout rounds somewhere,
    since Uruguay are out, and Uruguay also have some pull in CONMEBOL.
    So for him it is both merit and politics that points to it.

    I agree about a Brazilian on the final, it happened twice in consecutive World Cups after Brazil went out.
    However, if the US go out, (and it will be tough to get past Argentina if they beat Ecuador), Geiger has a chance as the home referee, but probably more likely on the 3rd place match if the US are not in it.

    PH
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Agreed Fedorczuk would make sense on a semi.

    If the US loses tomorrow night, I'd say you see Geiger on the 3/4 match. If the US wins, he might just be in a bad spot here. I really hope I'm wrong, but given the politics of the region and how CONMEBOL views this as their tournament, I can't see a CONCACAF referee on the Final and I can't see Geiger used in the semifinals if the US is involved.
     
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  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    ROLDAN (COL) for USA v. Ecuador.
     
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  19. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Well done on this one!

    PH
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    LOUSTAU (ARG) for Peru v Colombia
    LOPES (BRA) for Mexico v Chile
    GARCIA (MEX) for Argentina v Venezuela
     
  21. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Good calls again.
    No Geiger. Either he is being saved for later or is done.
    I guess the former;).
    Does this mean that Lopes is ruled out for the final?
    Actually Marrufo could be in this mix also.

    PH
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Thanks. I did get 3 out of 4, but really wish I was right about the other one!

    My fear is he's done if the US advances. If the US loses, the 3/4 match makes perfect sense for Geiger.

    I don't think Lopes is ruled out, but who knows! Last Copa, the Final ref came from the list of QF refs, so that's a good sign. But it was the first time that happened since 2004, so there is no pattern. Also worth noting Roldan did the last Final so you would think he's out for this one. But Amarilla did back to back finals in the early 2000s and this might be a "different" tournament anyway, so doesn't look like that would actually rule him out. I do note Lopes is the only referee from a country that people don't expect to be in the semifinals, which I think could be a signal of sorts.

    Can't imagine Marrufo is in the mix, but again, there's a lot of mystery to how this is working. I think the ending of his match hurts, the fact that Geiger has been ahead of him in FIFA's eyes hurts, and the fact that Marrufo can't do the US or Mexico hurts.

    I'd also add in the fact that I have to believe Aguilar gets used again and it seems really unlikely that two CONCACAF refs would be on the semis.
     
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  23. CornellBigRed

    CornellBigRed Member

    Apr 29, 2008
    Rye Brook, Westchester
    Country:
    United States
    Going off of MassRef's conjecture I might conclude Geiger was not really rated highly by those in charge. If he really doesn't get another match then his entire Copa America with the whistle was a single, uncompetitive group match. That would not suggest that he is considered one of the best in the region.

    P.S. I personally rate Geiger quite highly, but my opinion means bubkis.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Country:
    United States
    Continuing my own conjecture, I think you might be reading too much into it.

    To start, I think parochial CONMEBOL interests are going to trump any merit-based system or rankings. Moreover, I doubt the CONMEBOL Referee Committee had an opinion of Geiger at all coming into this. I think you have a situation where there were three established CONCACAF referees coming into this tournament (Aguilar, Geiger and Garcia). CONMEBOL probably made it clear that they would get the Final, so a CONCACAF referee got the opener (which Geiger couldn't do). Sure, Brazil-Haiti isn't the most competitive match, but a lot of these weren't on paper (would Bolivia-Chile been that much better, for example?). I think Geiger could/should have got one of these QFs, but Garcia earned another game, Roldan was always going to get one, and it seems like Loustau was going to be used because he will likely be useless after this round. So Geiger probably lost a coin flip to Lopes (and Brazil's loss to Peru probably weighted the coin to one side). Circumstances suck here, but circumstances also benefited Geiger before (WYC 2011), where he got the Final not solely due to his performance, but due also to the rigid rule that the referee had to be from outside UEFA and CONMEBOL. It happens.

    He could still get the 3/4 match if the US loses. I could be wrong and he could beat out Aguilar for a semi if the US loses, too. He also is the 4th for Loustau on the Colombia-Peru match. But even if he's done, I don't think it says too much about where he's ranked within CONCACAF and it definitely doesn't say anything about what FIFA thinks of him.
     
  25. CornellBigRed

    CornellBigRed Member

    Apr 29, 2008
    Rye Brook, Westchester
    Country:
    United States
    I like your conjecture better than my conjecture. :D
     

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