Containment zone: the Klinnsman / Donovan fault line

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes.

    And I don't want GGG to make Arena's or JK's mistakes by favoring either MLS or European players. Instead, I think that if he prioritizes getting younger, he can choose from a wide variety of talented prospects from MLS and abroad who will be able to qualify and do well in Qatar. He can choose Aaronson and Holmes. CCV and McKenzie. Pomykal and Mendez.

    It's a numbers game, and some of the players are going to come good.
     
    Mahtzo1, Marko72 and Patrick167 repped this.
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I’m not a fan of JK but the precipitating event to the fracturing of the USMNT was MLS offering a couple core players stupid money to return to MLS even though they had the ability and desire to play at a higher level.

    JK understandably took exception to this and made public comment not too dissimilar from BA and BB. The circumstances were different and Garber went nuts.
     
  3. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    #203 Honore de Ballsac, Apr 29, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    Yeah, No.

    Clint Dempsey joined Seattle Sounders in 2013?

    Landon Donovan joined Jurgen at Bayern Munich in 2009.

    But I think it was 2002 when JK started publicly blaming the weak mentality of American-raised soccer players, on TV.

    Like any good con-man, he knew our insecurities and what we were ready to hear.
    Also reminds me a bit of Buddy Cianci finding out at a debate that all his opponents were pro-choice. So he became the anti-abortion candidate on the spot.

    Jurgen's Euro resume was beyond question - but beyond that even it was his strongest point of differentiation from somebody like Bob Bradley. So he banged out that tune loud and long and every chance he got.

    Naturally some of his players followed suit, to promote their own roles and playing time - couple like minded doofuses with Euro experience and big mouths. Primacy was "earned" in Europe, rather than in a US jersey. Which, of course, creates two camps, Sneeches with stars and sneeches without. And that was killing morale there right up to Couva. Still happening, even in the fan base here. Funny how cancer works.
     
    schrutebuck, russ and Marko72 repped this.
  4. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I believe it's called the Garber's Dog Society around here.
     
    Mahtzo1 repped this.
  5. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    The circumstances precipitating the fracturing of USMNT and MLS were simply that JK was shite when it mattered in the 2nd cycle and every aspect of our MNT program was trending worse except for the quality of players coming up through various club academies (ie Adams and McKennie). If he'd done well enough, he'd have coached in Russia, for certain, regardless of how miffed Garber was about his statements. He talked trash about MLS right from the beginning, sometimes with reason, and yet he was manager for about 5-1/2 years.
     
    DHC1 repped this.
  6. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IIRC, the sentiment around here right after JK was fired was, if he'd managed a point against Mexico, he'd likely still be coaching. Cause we rarely get anything out of Costa Rica (even in 2014, when we did very well at home and away, we lost @CR 3-1, our best result there being a tie IIRC). It's the failure in CBus that doomed him. @ Guatemala and the 2015 GC were awful, but we had a solid Copa to balance that out.
     
    Patrick167 repped this.
  7. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    The Copa was far-and-away the bright spot of the cycle (until the Argentina match which was among the most pitiful matches I've ever seen us not even attempt to compete in), and that performance--an easy draw, at home, one really strong win over the Ticos and then a lot of ugly gutty results just barely hung onto, save against the Colombians--evens nothing out at all. The entire cycle was crap, and what was worse was that we weren't doing well on any level at all, even the youth levels. The air went out of the entire program. He left every facet of the USMNT worse off than he'd found it.
     
  8. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We played well against the Ticos and Paraguay (winning despite being down a man), and we were bossing Ecuador before the red cards. Wondo vs Argentina was classic JK, so if you were looking for "consistency", that was certainly not in JK's vocabulary.

    I'd like to put a caveat about the YNT results. We know for a fact that the bulk of many YNT's of that time were trash, no matter who was playing. When a majority of your YNT's are players that are either no longer professionals or never played senior minutes, 4 years later, that's a really bad cycle. Maki Tall, Danny Barbir, Joshua Perez (top scorer), Christian Dean, etc. Just awful.
     
    Patrick167 and DHC1 repped this.
  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Why we gave him a second term still baffles me - we shouldn’t give a second term to anyone.

    A coach shouldn’t want it either- it only serves to make them look bad.
     
  10. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Under JK’s tenure, MLS overpaid to acquired several core USMNT players who were able to compete at a higher level:

    - Clint from Tottenham in 2013 after his first season after Spurs bought him for a then record.

    - MB was bought by TFC in January 2014
    from AS Roma

    These were two of our most important players who went from competing in the majors to playing in the minors.

    MLS’ strategy had changed dramatically. Previously, they would take players who (a) didn’t want to be in or couldn’t make it in the majors or (b) were sunsetting on their career but now they were actively overpaying players in their prime to play at a lower level.

    It’s not surprising that JK started to complain - I think he did it in a ineffectual manner. TBF, I was a proponent of the move for MB from a USMNT perspective as I thought it would give him a chance to develop as “the Man” - I was wrong and JK was right.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd guess his recent posts would have reminded you where he stood on things.
     
  12. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Sunil was so gutless that it is possible he would have hung on.

    But it is now known that Sunil was going to replace JK with BA in the Spring of 2016, but Flynn went into the hospital.
     
  13. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you think it a coincidence that neither Klinsmann nor Arena could get the team qualified? Look to the player pool as the biggest culprit. Sure, both of them made mistakes, but the quality of the player pool was the biggest crime. And this responsibility rests largely on the shoulders of the USSF. MLS made a lot of contributions. MLS was not the problem.
     
    Patrick167 repped this.
  14. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I generally agree with your overall conclusion that the player pool was depleted I have a different take on it.

    I definitely believe that Arena or Klinsmann SHOULD have been able t qualify the team. I don't see any scenario in which we should be 4th place in a concacaf group. I strongly believe that, even if it wasn't the strongest possible roster at the time, the roster he chose was easily good enough to beat T&T. That is on the coach.

    I agree that MLS wasn't the problem. If anything, it is possible that we would have done far worse in 2014 without MLS and MLS' contributions hid the weaknesses in our player development system. (MLS wasn't good at developing players at the time, but at least it gave players a place to play that otherwise might have been out of the game.)

    I tend to believe that USSF actually has very little control over the most important factors in development. I don't see any real scenario where that would be different (regardless of USSF's actions). Yes, there is coaching cert, classes etc but our development program historically has been pay to pay. YNT programs are important but they affect too small a population to have any real significance. Bradeton was never going to be the solution....even if it were more effective in producing players.

    I am not saying USSF is blameless or that they are competent in any way. Far from that but USSF's role is more advisory and structural. (by the way, lack of competence is probably not USSF's main historical downfall....substitute corruption for incompetence).
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think the transition from the USSF Residential Academy to MLS academies may have a material role in our (hopefully temporal) decline. The benefits of Bradenton is that we pooled 40 top kids (maybe not the top but among them) and they had the ability to work together on a consistent basis. That formed a strong understanding of how to play together.

    When MLS academies started, these nucleus players were pulled apart as core members of local academies. In other words, instead of playing with 39 similarly skilled players in Florida, they may be been the best player in their region and the elite group got to play with each other much less frequently.

    Now, this may have been a necessary and positive step in US Soccer's evolution but it seems like it's a plausible outcome for a pretty dramatic change in how elite talent was assembled.
     
    Honore de Ballsac, russ and Mahtzo1 repped this.
  16. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I agree that the transition likely had something to do with our issues (it took a while for MLS to begin to figure it out).

    The single biggest disadvantage to Bradeton was that, regardless of how good of a job they did recruiting and how good their coaching staff, it was always going to be a low ceiling due to numbers. There is only so much that one group/team/academy can achieve...especially in a vacuum. MLS having multiple academies is infinitely better than if they just had one. (ok, infinitely better is a slight exaggeration...)
     
  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Almost by definition, I think it broadens the pool but a reasonable argument can be made that it hurts the top end by diluting their ability to play with other truly elite players of the same age.

    To the extent that these elite players get integrated into the senior MLS team is an obvious off-setting benefit.
     
    Mahtzo1 repped this.
  18. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Interesting choice of words....I almost said exactly the same thing!

    It is a reasonable argument that it dilutes the top end by spreading them but the other side of the argument is that it concentrates them literally into 1 team with no competition. On one hand, they are practicing with and against most of the elite talent in the country but they don't get any regular competition in game situations (except relatively infrequent comps vs international teams).
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think Brandeton played against USL and other minor league teams but I could be wrong.
     
  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Klinsmann was a terrible coach and the players were not good enough how exactly did we get the results we did during JK's tenure.

    A reminder, Klinsmann holds the record for the best single and two year run in the history of the USMNT program along with a record 12 match win streak.

    ALL-TIME LONGEST WIN STREAKS BY NATIONAL TEAMS (Courtesy: Soccer America)

    15: Spain (2008-2009)
    14: Australia (1996-1997)
    14: Brazil (1997)
    14: France (2003-2004)
    13: Scotland (1879-1885)
    13: Brazil (1960-1962)
    12: USA (2013-current)
    12: East Germany (1973-1974)
    12: West Germany (1979-1980)
    12: France (1984-1985)
    12: Mexico (1987-1990)

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2013...-world-record-longest-winning-streak-national
     
  21. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Maybe. I don't know. I do know that USL has grown and the overall quality of the teams is likely quite a bit better than it was...partly due to MLS' involvement.
     
  22. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I thought Klinsmann was mediocre as a coach and the decision to drop Donovan was a personal one and not at all reflective of the quality of several who were picked ahead of him. That said, the failure to qualify for me will absolutely always be on the players. Yeah, Arena could have rested players more or whatever, Klinsmann could have done better, whatever. In the end, we had 11 players against 11 players who failed to do the job. And I see players al over Europe playing high stakes high intensity games twice a week all the time. The guys being too tired is a bullshit excuse. They were just incompetent. They could not be trusted to show up when it mattered most and neither of two coaches could get them to play like they cared.
     
    um_chili repped this.
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    You took me a bit out of context. I understand your respect for JK, but you have to admit that by December 2016, most people had the opinion that JK's coaching was the problem. That all that was needed was a competent coach be given the team and they would breeze to qualifying. You can think that opinion was wrong, but you were maybe 6% of the fan base and 0% of the media.

    The best thing that happened to JK's reputation is that the team failed to qualify. The worst thing that happened to BA's reputation is that the team failed to qualify. The players have been largely let off the hook by the media and Berhalter.
     
    TheHoustonHoyaFan repped this.
  24. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Arena only needed a draw against T&T. Of course he should have been able to qualify the team! But the reason that it was close at all is because of the player pool. This is the bigger picture.
     
  25. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I believe that he could have put a better team on the field....just by using a few different players that were currently on his roster. I also believe there were other players in the pool that could have benefited the team as well. I feel that qualifying out of concacaf is a low enough bar that not qualifying for the world cup is all on the coach.

    That being said, I think you are right about the player pool and it is the bigger picture going forward. Fortunately, there are many encouraging signs. Time will tell. I have felt optimistic in the past only to be disappointed but this time seems different.
     

Share This Page