Containment zone: the Klinnsman / Donovan fault line

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #1 DHC1, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    Per a suggestion on another thread, let’s put all the “discussions” of how

    (A) JK sucks and set our program back 20 years for cutting LD / European leagues are overrated

    Or

    (B) MLS sucks and has set back USMNT 20 years

    The enmity that happened here has many forms but IMO, it’s really the JK vs LD/MLS issue and really the anger that resulted from LD getting cut even though he was clearly among the best 23 players. The issue was made even worse when the USMNT surprisingly out-performed in Brazil despite not having one of our few difference makers on the roster.

    I’ll add one point by saying it’s unfortunate who gets hit with undeserved collateral damage:

    Green
    Brooks
    Wood
    Jones
    FJ
    Chandler
    Morales
    Williams

    (See a trend here?....)

     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #2 DHC1, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    Score one from MP9 on team “I hate JK”

     
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  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #3 DHC1, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    One from Irish rover on team “I hate JK”

     
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  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    One for team “LD/MLS/Arena sucks” from y-lee-coyote:

     
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  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Score another for the "“LD/MLS/Arena sucks” from sam hamwich. TBF, I'm not sure I understand most of this.

     
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  6. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Hmm, I love LD. Great player. I like MLS much better now that they play more talented foreign players. I thought Bruce was the best US coach, then he castrated himself for some reason.

    So, wrong on all counts.
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Another for the “I hate JK” team from Guinho.

     
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  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are a saint.
     
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  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Far, far, far from it.

    Now I’ll find out you were referring to someone else and I’ve embarrassed myself again!
     
  10. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Well, yes. Klinsmann was a mess. Tactically, he could never figure out what he was doing. By all accounts he is a terrible personnel manager who alienated key people. He over promised and couldn’t maintain consistency. He had the worst record against top 20 opposition of any US manager since I think Steve Sampson

    Hate is too strong a word, but I share the view of many in Germany is that he is nowhere near a top tier coach.
     
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  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    This is the thread for it....
     
  12. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    This thread feels like it's stoking the fire more so than containing it.
     
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  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    We’ll see. The hope is that, at the least, the responses will be in this thread instead of all the other ones.

    We’ll also see who the repeat customers are on both sides.

    I have my list of expected antagonists and am happy to share via PM (and would be entertained to hear other’s thought too)
     
  14. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    Brad mother********ing Davis.
     
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  15. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Holy shit, I forgot about that guy. Wild. Mix Diskerud didn't get off the bench if I recall correctly. I don't think Brad Davis did either, did he?
     
  16. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Davis started against Germany.
     
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  17. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oof.
     
  18. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, but who cares about your opinion about how myself and other posters are really motivated? This presumptuous exercise establishes a false equivalence between the rational opinion that Klinsmann performed poorly in his position as NT technical director and head coach, which there is lots of evidence to support, and a batshit conspiracy theory. I'm wondering why you went through this exercise which, basically, undermines Jurgen's critics while at the same time giving credence to people that can barely form a cohesive and practical argument vis a vis MLS one way or the other?
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The point is that this issue gets constantly re-litigated in far too many threads so here's a place to hopefully contain the discussion (i mean, really, how many times can you make the same argument that you've made since LD was cut?*). If we can't contain it, well, we can keep track of who re-litigates the most. Sunlight = disinfectant etc.

    Feel free to ignore both me and this thread, of course.

    * I recall how furious you and several others were back then which is, of course, your right.
     
  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Toazer takes a shot for Team “I hate Jk”

     
  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #8or#6 rises to the bait for team “I hate LD/MLS sucks”

     
  23. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Klinsmann did some good things in my mind. In particular I think he steered the conversation away from "how can the national team make players better" to "how can players take responsibility for themselves as professionals and improve themselves as players for the national team." To my view, this is a very important change that was needed.

    I thought the Donovan omission was a bad move if for no other reason than if we are down a goal late and you look to the bench, not having your all time leading scorer who is still quite close to his prime is a pretty darn solid option he needed and didn't have. Instead it was time to throw on Wondo. My guess has always been it mostly had to do with team dynamics or personal issues because no one in their right mind really thought we had 23 players better than Donovan on that squad. Being on the outside, it really is hard to say exactly what was the issue, but Klinsmann was just being cagey with that whole bit about others a little ahead of him. He may have even been being kind so as not to trash the guy after cutting him.

    So yeah, I thought Klinsmann brought some value as far as improving the professionalism expected of the players and that sort of thing. And, despite all his big talk, he was also tactically astute enough to at least understand that we would need to be strong defensively first playing against big teams and he packed the center of the field expecting this.

    But, otherwise, he pretty much failed at his ambition to turn the US into more than he started with. A more attacking style of play never emerged and he ended up favoring physicality over skill. The youth teams were all uniformly poor under his watch. His best finish was par for the course; we did not finish high than previously and the style of play was no better, which is waht made signing him to an extension before the WC absurd.

    In my mind, his time was a mixed bag, disappointing because I had high hopes and expectations going in that were never met. And I think the Donovan thing is hard for many to get past because it not only left us with one of our most dangerous weapons unavailable, but it also showed a complete lack of respect for our long-serving, highest ever scoring player. I guess that shouldn't be surprising with his whole thing about how Dempsey hadn't done shit. Basically, Klinsmann thought no US player had really done anything worth respecting and I'm not 100% sure he wasn't right if we're thinking in terms of top international teams. He thought no US player was particularly accomplished and thus no US player was irreplaceable.
     
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  24. #8or#6

    #8or#6 Red Card

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 15, 2017
    Never said either thing. If you have a point to make, make it honestly.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Would you prefer the “I like JK” moniker instead? It’s the same issue litigated time and again.
     

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