i follow the argie league and agree with you in much arguments. but is true too that 3 or 4 brazilian teams who don't qualify to libertadores if could participate propably would enter as favorite: Vasco, Fluminense, Cruzeiro and Figueirense (if they qualify don't need to sell their best players). in some ways is unfair give different number of spots for each country, but is unfair give 3 spots to 50% of population/GDP/Area south america and 30+ for the rest.
ya when will Grondona actually do something right and change the way the teams qualify fro the Libertadores?? Boca Juniors should have been in last season, and Gimnasia souldnt be in this season at all
A Figueirense não tem um time este ano... Eles perderam seus melhores jogadores como Soares, Schwenck, Cícero, Carlos Alberto (suspensão) e Rodrigo Souto (ex-Vasco).
Who cares about having a lot of crappy matches like Bolivia's 3rd place x Venezuela's 3rd place? More spots for Argentina and Brazil (and Mexico) make the tournament better. Look at the Champions League. Almost every match is worth watching.
Bolivia and Venezuela might be the only ones not worth watching in respect to their 3rd place teams, the rest of S.A. have interesting teams. I could care less about teams like Gimnasia LP or Parana. I'm not saying they suck or they are boring to watch but any other 3rd place from S.A. can provide a good game.
I don't know. I don't care about Parana either, but I believe they put up a better fight than the 3rd place of several other countries like Equador, Colombia, Uruguay and maybe Paraguai and Chile.
And paraná resch the libertadores because lucky. the usual 5th spot can be Vasco, Cruzeiro, Botafogo, Palmeiras...
What is your reasoning for that statement? Are you aware of how many different Argentine teams have won copa Libertadores? Look it up.
yes, 7, and 8 reach the finals and 8 brazilian teams wins. and 10 reach the finals. the fundamental component is that only boca river and velez still playing a competitive soccer in last years. and at least 7-8 brazilian teams are top tiers in south america.
This is a poorly named thread. It is provocative, and some of the posts here haven't been any better. Having said that, the rule forbidding a same-country final is ludicrous. I've already presented scenarios where we might have 3 or even 4 semifinalists from the same country (Brazil or Argentina). Instead of such idiotic rules maybe the boys at CONMEBOL might want to adopt and enforce rules beefing up stadium security (and penalizing teams who do not comply), better refereeing (bringing UEFA refs for matches from the round of 16 onwards if necessary), etc. But no, the CONMEBOL hard hats who never face long lines, who never risk running into crowds of angry fans, or whose bathrooms are fit for human use probably won't care. Then they wonder why UEFA scoops up the best CONMEBOL talents as fast as they can.
That is not true. Do you follow Argentine football at all? There are a lot of competitive teams. It pains me to say it, but the best team in Argentina last season, the team that played the best football, was Estudiantes de la Plata. They beat Boca in the final and the deserved the title. And they are not even participating in Libertadores this year. They didn't crack the top five in Libertadores. Our league is very deep and very competitive. The problem is that as our talent gets raided and teams seem to have to reload every year, the balance of power changes from one season to the next, and so the best teams at the time are not always the ones that are participating. I don't understand why you don't get it, as it is a problem in Brazil as well. Argentina and Brazil have some excellent teams every year, and conmebol recognizes it. By having five or six teams, there is a better chance that the best teams will be represented. Even so, it doesn't always happen. So, Brujita Veron's Estudiantes will be watching from the sidelines while rivals Gimnasia, who had a horrible season, will play in the tournament. It is not a perfect system, because you reward the play of two or three seasons ago, not of the last season. Thus, we get some bad teams occasionally, that embarrass our league. But no matter. When all is said and done, I am sure Argentine teams will be contesting the title. Brazilians as well. It happens just about every year, ever since I started watching football.
I agree with you that CONMEBOL has much more serious problems that they should be tackling. But after acknowledging that there are much more important issues, I still don't see what is wrong with trying to work out the seedings to minimize the possibility that two teams from the same country meet in the final. I understand that this is a club tournament, and as a strong loyal fan of Boca I don't care about the other clubs nationality. It is the same to me if we play another Argentine team or a foreign team in the final. I just care that we can make the final and win it. But still, it is an international tournament and for the casual fan, I feel it is less interesting if the final turns out to be two teams from the same country. It doesn't matter if it is Brazil, or Argentina, or any other country. Since there are a lot more casual fans than real (strongly loyals) fans, I can see why Conmebol wants to do it that way. I can understand their reasoning. But to me it is a tempest in a teapot. I think seedings are overrated. If you aspire to be the champion, you have to beat whoever is put in front of you, regardless of their nationality.
i follow argentina championship in cable and honestly, you have a competitive league, but not so deep than brazilian league and not so competitive. maybe you deserve 5 spots, but you don't deserve the same number of spots than us. greetings.
why then they don't put this in the original rules of tournament? they cheat, like always does. the casual fan can understand that teams from same federation play one world cup final, of teams from the same country one champions league final. the casual fan maybe cant comprehend that the two strongest sides in the comepetition was forced to play each other because their nationality.
I disagree with you, ASF, and to illustrate my point I refer you to page 1 of this thread where I worked out a hypothetical round of 16 seeding that could theoretically lead to 3 or even 4 teams from either Brazil or Argentina in the semifinals. As abhorrent as an all-Brazilian or all-Argentine final four would be to every CONMEBOL fan from other countries, it is a risk that is being taken by having so many teams from Brazil and Argentina. If CONMEBOL were serious about minimizing the risk of a same-country final then they should reduce the spots for teams from Brazil and Argentina. But then does Fenix from Uruguay or weaker teams from Peru or Bolivia seem like competitors that will make the Libertadores more challenging, as opposed to the 2nd or 3rd place finishers of the Brasileirão or the Apertura/Clausura? I couldn’t care less if it’s a Brazilian team facing São Paulo. We faced Atlético-PR in 2005 and Internacional in 2006, and these were tough games. The return game vs. Internacional last year was particularly competitive. It doesn’t matter what country the team is from. If you’re good enough, you should be able to beat anybody who comes your way and advance to the final. Tell me you didn’t like it when Boca eliminated Rio da Prata in the 2004 semifinals in a Boca fan-free Núñez!
Hey you get rep for mentioning Boca beating the gayinas, and especially for calling them Rio da Prata. But I am not dissagreeing with you that much. I agree with you in general, as I said, that to win you have to beat the best, anyway, regardless of which country they are from. And although I think there are too many teams in Libertadores, (and I'd rather go back to the days of less teams), I also think it is logical that if you are going to expand the field, you got to bring the best teams, which happen to be the Argentine and Brazilians. But my point is not that you are wrong, it is that I feel it is not such a big deal. If they move Boca's bracket to play River in the semis, or if we play them in the final, or if we have to play a Brazilian team in the finals, it is no big deal. We got to beat them anyway, if we aspire to be the champions. The best team is the last one standing. Just making the finals is not a prize. To clarify, I don't necesarily support the changes, but I was saying that I can understand why Conmebol is doing it. A lot of casual fans see this tournament as a country vs country competition. You and I don't, most serious fans don't, but Conmebol is trying to please the larger pool of casual fans, I guess. And I'm just saying: so be it, it doesn't bother me. Whoever it is conmebol says we have to play, Bring it on! Just win baby!
These rules is totally ridiculous. If they enter a tournament all together, they should follow the natural flow and play the finals no matter what. If they are the best too bad for the rest. It’s like someone saying that two teams from Sao Paulo can’t play the final of Brasileirao or two teams from Buenos Aires can’t play the final in Argentina. If the Brasilians teams are better, good for them. If we have a final with two teams from Argentina good for them. I would follow as well. Conmebol sucks.
Champions League also has more clubs from Europe´s big leagues than from Europe´s smaller leagues. So the guy asking Libertadores to have the same number of teams for each country is doing a ludicrous proposition. Not only Brazil and Argentina have more good clubs, as they also have MUCH MORE clubs than other South American countries. So, in the same way that Europe has more spots for the World Cup (because not only they have more countries, but also they have more countries GOOD at soccer), Brasil and Argentina have not only GOOD clubs, but also many more clubs.
The best teams are from Brazil and Argentine. This story from Sports Illustrated is very clear why says 13 of the 15 copas are belonging to Brazil and Argentina. Take a look. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/gregory_sica/02/13/libertadores.preview/index.html
why is it that writers think Mauro Zarate brother of Rolando Zarate of Mexcian club is so great..Is he that good my friend of Velez club says yes he is the next Maradona??