I've seen tons of them in Germany and Austria. Not just Bart Simpson, but all of the characters (and particularly Barney Gumble).
Re: Re: Here's to Iraqi 'reconstruction' What most people fail realize is that the CSA was an independent nation for a few years. Therefore to them, a foreign power, the USA, did invade and conquer them and "reconstruct" them. And don't forget the social divisions in the south. It may be a stretch to compare it to Iraq but you do have 3 seperate social groups in Iraq where one group dominated the other two.
CLETUS http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2446730244 I saw the men get out of this car in italy. There was a deer on the roof and a gunrack in the rear window. The guy driving was called Cletus and said "Daggone it Brahduhly, ahm gawna puhlay in Youropah." I think he is sellin the car because he has to go to Scotland. There is a reserve on the car, so Cletus will be familiar with that word when he gets there!
Re: Re: Re: Here's to Iraqi 'reconstruction' The problem is that even throughout the war, the CSA never really received international recognition--which most political geographers would agree is a requirement for statehood--because they were at war...a civil war...a war for independence...this war they lost and thus were not able to gain true sovereignty. Although the South may have had the upper hand in the early years of the war, a decisive victory for the South to end the war was never clearly apparent during it. If it had been, the European nations would have most likely gotten involved by recognizing the CSA and perhaps even gotten directly involved in the war--which was a very real possibility for a time, but it died out soon after Gettysburg and Vicksburg. The point here is that the the CSA was never actually recognized internationally, nor by the North (of course). So the situation was different from that of Iraq (an internationally recognized sovereignty).
A group of Sigma fans seem to like carrying around a confederate flag to away games. I can tell you that there is a group of Sigma fans who are skinheads. When a player from Nigeria made his debut for Sigma last year a section of 30 fans turned their back to the field and made animal noises. A few minutes later they left the stadium with 20 minutes to go in the game.
So my question is....did the Confederate battle flag originate here or did the leaders of the south get the design from Europe somewhere. It could have stood for racism in Europe a long time before the South used it
Great discussion and all, but please... WHERE is the damn flag in that picture? I looked for 10 minutes!
The "battle flag" is also called the Beauregarde Flag, for Gen. P.G.T.Beauregarde, who designed it to avoid confusion on the field. In the early battles of the Civil War, the two flags were often confused, with disasterous consequences. Uniforms caused confusion, too. Most southern soldiers came as they were; not all were issued either the butternut or the gray uniform, since there was a shortage of everything the south needed to fully supply its armies. Often the tunics of dead northern troops were worn by southern soldiers. The union dead at Fredericksburg became a virtual quatermaster for Longstreet's corps of Lee's army.
A Real Madrid supporter I spoke to is pretty sure the Ultra Sur flies it because they can't display Nazi flags anymore. Like it or not, but the Confederate Battle Flag has become a symbol of white power. You can argue that the intent was never there, but symbols get co-opted. Ask any Indian who paints a swastika somewhere visible. Sachin
The confederate flag might be a symbol of white supremacy to some who carry it around. But itmight also be a symbol of rebellion to some others, slightly ignorant to the things the flag stood for (btw... I believe this war was about more than the right to keep slaves... but I might be wrong)
Slavery was the most visible issue, but at it's heart, the American Civil War was about the distribution of power between the states and the Federal government. Like someone else said, between "these United States" and "the United States". Sachin
There is no deep meaning of racism to the battle flag. In the time before modern communications, soldiers relied on flags to identify friend or foe. The CSA flag looked too similar to the American flag when one was under stress in the heat of battle. Troops would run to the wrong side. So the battle flag was created simply because it looked different. It's only after the war that white supremecy groups adopted the battle flag. And remember, for years, the KKK used the American flag in their marches.
Even when you point out where the flag is in that picture, it's simply too small (and too dark) to be able to tell it's the Confederate flag....just looks like a tiny red flag.
Yeah, you're right. I've had a couple of college history courses on the Civil War. The heart of the matter was "states' rights" versus the power of a central Federal government (which the South viewed as being in the hands of the North...even though most Presidents before the War seemed to come from the South). Anyway, one thing that has to realized is that the slavery issue really was the catalyst of the whole states' rights/federal government problem, especially when it related to the pre-war fight over the creation of new states as slave or free in the west. In other words, if there was no slavery there would have been no war. A side note, a few weeks ago I was driving through the mountains of central Pennsylvania (in the middle of nowhere) and saw a Confederate Battle Flag flying on the front yard of some guy living on a mountain side...this was NORTH of the Mason Dixon Line...it pissed me off to see it.
It pisses me off every time I see one. Though, living in Chicago, the most you'll probably see of one is on a car sticker. I know people say that the flag is part of their history, and that they want to display it proudly, but the rebel flag has come to mean more than that. As Sachin said earlier, the symbol of perpetual motion (swastika) now stands for something wholly different. And, on a slighty different topic, what is with states in the south displaying the confederate flag in front of government buildings? Racial issues aside, these buildings represent (in some capacity) the government of the United States of America. I don't think you should hang the flag of a former government. I don't think they plan on hanging pre war Iraqi flags on buildings in Iraq. Ok, my ranting is done. Who knows, maybe an american will play for one of these teams soon and speak out about it. It could happen.
the duke boys always had the stars and bars on their car, the general lee. and nobody made a big deal about it back then
Cypha, It should piss you off. This is either a southerner who moved north or a hick northerner who is racist. If the person is not originally southern then they are definitely flying the flag for racist reasons. Believe me...they are not flying it because they "feel" for the economic opression of the southern states during the 1800's.
Anyone who claims they "'feel' for the economic opression of the southern states during the 1800's is the dumbest MF I have ever heard of. Who has the ability to "feel" for the economic hardships of 145 years ago. No one. If you fly the flag you are an ingnorant dumb ass. You are a racist. If you think you can fly this flag without being a racist, then you are so dumb you should be taken behind your trailer and shot. Grow up. The year is 2003, join us in a little thing we call civilization. At least these ultra groups have the ballz to use this flag for what it represents and admit that thay are bigots. Ever notice the kind of people that fly this thing? Jesus, dumb ass redneck hicks!
There are a lot of cotributing factors to the US Civil War, but considering all I have read on this subject, I do not think there would have been bloodshed if slavery was not one of the issues. From an economic standpoint, the southern states needed slavery and had too much to lose if they let that issue go. Since the north had a more diverse economy, the impact wasn't as great. I have noticed the battle flag at some stadiums in Europe. There are ignorant and small minded people all over the world, so this isn't a surprise. The one thng I like about US sports is that they rarely, if ever, become a forum for politics. Here, sport is just sport (the Superbowl excluded!) and the people who go to games just go for the sake of the game. Maybe this is because we're less tribal here in the US, but I don't know.
I can't tell if you are yelling at me or agreeing with me! Be a little more clear. It seems like you're calling ME a racist. If so, then you totally misunderstood my post. I am not in any way defending people who fly the southern cross. I'm saying that racism IS the reason why they fly it. NOT because of north vs. south economic issues during the 1800's. If you are indeed yelling at me...then you should be yellow-carded.
Iraq has a new flag? It's not as if the old one had a picture of Saddam on it - possibly the only thing in the country that didn't.