I wanted to elaborate on the reasoning behind only giving club points to teams in the group stages, and I'll do it with a hypothetical. Last year, the four Mexican clubs earned a total of 92.5 points for their country. Pretend that happens again in the future, but one of the teams goes out in the prelims, and that drops the Mexican total to, say, 68. Because club coefficients are partially determined by the national coefficient, a team that went out after two matches, potentially losing both, would, if club points were given to teams in the preliminary round, earn 5.61 points. For losing two matches, they don't deserve anything. Plus, giving points for prelim matches without including them in an average would give an unfair advantage in the club coefficient to those playing in the preliminary round. I hope that's a satisfactory explanation. Now, to more important matters...(and to make this work with hotlinking: Toronto FC and D.C. United) After 2010-11 Group Stage, Matchday 1 Code: League Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 6.250 48.875 Honduras 12.750 8.333 4.167 25.250 Canada 16.500 0.500 7.500 24.500 CFU 9.167 8.000 3.833 21.000 Panama 9.250 7.000 1.667 17.917 United States 4.625 8.375 4.625 17.625 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 2.250 13.250 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 3.500 12.250 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 2.250 11.167 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 2.0833 55.1313 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 3.3889 31.3889 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 3.0833 25.7146 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 2.2778 24.9734 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 4.0833 23.5000 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 0.7500 14.7117 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 3.5417 14.3055 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 2.3889 12.6389 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 0.5556 10.8656 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 0.7500 7.4167 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 1.2778 6.3334 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 4.5000 4.5000 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 4.0833 4.0833 Real Salt Lake0.0000 0.0000 3.5417 3.5417 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 2.1667 2.1667 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 1.5417 1.5417
Code: Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 2.0833 55.1313 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 3.3889 31.3889 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 3.0833 25.7146 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 2.2778 24.9734 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 4.0833 23.5000 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 0.7500 14.7117 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 3.5417 14.3055 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 2.3889 12.6389 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 0.5556 10.8656 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 0.7500 7.4167 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 1.2778 6.3334 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 [B]Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 4.5000 4.5000[/B] Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 4.0833 4.0833 Real Salt Lake0.0000 0.0000 3.5417 3.5417 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 2.1667 2.1667 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 1.5417 1.5417 I see. You put the total together twice instead of having .5000 and 4.0000 beside each other
in that case explain this: Code: Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Toronto FC 0.0000 [B]0.0000 4.5000[/B] 4.5000
Toronto's coefficient is 2 points for their group stage win, plus 1/3 of Canada's coefficient for the year. Canada's coefficient is 7.5 - 1.5 for Toronto's prelim results, 4 bonus points for making the group stages, and 2 for Toronto's win over Cruz Azul. 1/3 of 7.5 is 2.5, 2 + 2.5 = 4.5.
That is right, I forgot about the rule that teams must make the groups to get on the board, Toronto had never made the group so they had no points until this year.
Right. Because Toronto didn't make the group stages in 2009-10, they weren't eligible to get any points for their club coefficient.
As ArsenalMetro said, Toronto did not participate in the group stage in 2009-2010 so they get no points.
After 2010-11 Group Stage, Matchday 2 EDIT for coding purposes: Toronto FC and D.C. United. Code: League Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 8.250 50.875 Honduras 12.750 8.333 4.167 25.250 Canada 16.500 0.500 7.500 24.500 CFU 9.167 8.000 4.833 22.000 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 18.583 United States 4.625 8.375 4.625 17.625 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 2.750 13.750 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 3.500 12.250 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 3.250 12.167 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 4.7500 57.7980 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 3.3889 31.3889 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 5.7500 28.3813 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 4.6111 27.3067 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 6.7500 26.1667 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 3.0833 17.0450 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 3.5417 14.3055 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 13.0878 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 2.3889 12.6389 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 1.9167 8.5834 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.6111 7.6667 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 6.7500 6.7500 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 4.5000 4.5000 Real Salt Lake0.0000 0.0000 3.5417 3.5417 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 2.1667 2.1667 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 1.5417 1.5417
First off, great work and many thanks for doing it. Much appreciated by myself and many others. I would like to make two suggestions. One in relation to country coefficients. And one of lesser importance regarding team coefficients. I couldn't help noticing your method is closely modeled on UEFA's method of calculation. http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/calc.html I always found one item in their computation odd, and it is mirrored here, but it has been adjusted. I think for the better, and I think we should do likewise. Here it is: 4 bonus points for Group Stage Qualification, but only 1 point each for subsequent rounds. Getting OUT of group should be worth more than getting INTO group. Especially since half the teams in group got there automatically (I'm not sure if they get the bonus points or not). Even if they don't, getting OUT is more impressive than getting in, period. As such, UEFA in 2010 is awarding 5 bonus points for getting out of group (reaching the first KO stage). Then 1 for the QF, SF, and F. I think we should do likewise. In our case, it would be 5 bonus points for reaching the QF, then one additional for the SF and F. I think it makes logical sense as it is harder to get out of group than get in. And, it will more accurately reflect the strength of the confederations. I think confederations that consistently send teams into the final eight should be rewarded. I think the current system underrates confederations with one really strong team (say, Costa Rica). UEFA didn't make any retroactive changes, just applied them to this year onward (I think). We should mirror it. --------------------------- The second idea is that there should be some reward for clubs for progressing through qualification. UEFA doesn't count the individual match results into the country coefficient for qualifying matches, and neither do you. I think that is the right call. However, UEFA does include a bonus for getting through each qualifying round of the competition. The rounds where a bonus is not given are CL rounds where losing teams parachute into the Europa League. Since we have no Europa league, I think there should be a (small) bonus given to team that progress through qualifying (UEFA gives .50 and 1.0 for Q1 and Q2 in CL, and anywhere from .25 to 2.0 for Europa League). As teams get 4 points for making group, I'd say .50 of a point (or 1.0) would be OK for making the lone Q Round. Lastly, on the team side, I'd note UEFA has reduced the country coefficient part to 20% this year, so it is what the team earned + 20% of the country coefficient, not 33% as in year's past. This change may also help alleviate some of the disadvantage of giving team points to teams that make the QR.
Could work, the Issue would be that teams already get points for wins and ties in the group play. So if Monterrey wins all six games they get 16 points 4 (group bonus) + 2*6. Second place would get let’s say they win 3 games and draw 1. 4+1+2*3= 11 points. Third place lets say gets 2 wins and 1 draw; 4+1+2*2= 9 points. Last place gets 0. In the current system the top 2 teams would also get 1 extra point even if they lose both qualifying games correct, so it would end: 1. 17 2. 12 3. 9 4. 0 In your system (new UEFA) 1. 21 (or is it 22) 2. 16 (17) 3. 9 4. 0 is this right?
My understanding was that I was proposing two things: (and I'm sorry if I didn't do a good job explaining): 1) First: a change in the number of poinsts awarded to a team for getting OUT of group from 1 to 5. So that the bonus for getting out of group is bigger than getting in. 2) Second: awarding a bonus to each team for getting to the QR (either .5 or 1 pt). Since teams don't accrue points for match wins in the QR, I thought there should be some benefit (mainly to the team but also to the confederation) for qualifying. And a team that went through QR to get to group would also have more points than a team that went directly to group (by one). Certainly, the team deserves some points (to distance itself from others that didn't qualify) inside it's own confederation, and I think teams that go through an extra round should get more points than those that simply went straight to group. I guess such points could be excluded from the coefficient ranking, but I don't think UEFA does it that way. ---------------- So, in your scenario: 1. Monterrey: six wins = 2*6 = 12. Plus 4 pts for group QUAL, plus +5 for KO qual = 21. No points for making it to Qual rounds, as they went straight to group and got 4 points for that. 2. Second place: 3 W, 1 D, 2 L = 7 pts, + 4 pts (Gr Qual bonues) + 5 for KO Qual = 16 pts. Now, if they were a team that qualified directly to group, then that would be it. If they went through QR, they'd get the additional proposed 1pt/.5 pt for qualifying for QR. I like 1 pt better, but either way. So they'd have 16 or 17, depending on the route they took to get there. Let's say its Peurto Rico, or some such, and they get the 17 points. 3. Third place. 2 W, 1 D, 3 L = 5 pts + 4 for Group qual = 9. That would be it, unless they were a team that went through QR, then they'd also get the 1 pt for QR qual. For our purposes, let's say they were a direct qualifier for group, so they get no bonus points for QR qualification, nor do they get any for KO qual. So they would stay at 9. 4. Last place. 6 losses = zero points + 4 for Group qual = 4. Any additional points would be given if they went through QUAL to get there. In this scenario, since we already have two teams who got to group directly, then this team must have went through the QR, and so they'd get a point for qualification to the QR, and bump themselves to 5. Essentially, the extra point is just for qualifying for the tournaments QR, as opposed to the four the automatic group qualifiers get, or any team gets for making group. But teams that went through QR and then made group would have an extra point (5 instead of 4 + whatever they earn from their group matches). And teams that made QR but failed to get to the group stage would still get 1 point (but no point for their QR matches). --------------------------------------------------------------- So, in any 4 team group, you'd have: 1. Team 1: Direct to group (Mexican champ) = 4 pts (Group Qual bonus) + GR match pts + KO bonus (5) if they make it. 2. Team 2: Direct to group (USA champ) = 4 pts (Group qual bonues) + GR match pts + KO bonus (5) if they make it. 3. Team 3: Qual Round (Hon 2nd) = 1 pt (Qual Rd bonus) + 4 pts (Group Qual bonus) + GR match points + KO bonus (5) if they make it. 4. Team 4: Qual Round (Can 1st) = 1 pt (Qual Rd bonus) + 4 pts (Group Qual bonus) + GR match points + KO bonus (5) if they make it. ------------------------- Plus, you'd have the two losers in the QR for that group (and all the others): 5. Teams 5 & 6: Qualification Round losers (CFU 3, Belize 1) = 1 pt (Qual Rd bonus). That's it, no points for wins or draw in the QR. I don't know what (if any) the net effect would be on the confederation side of things, since all confederations with teams in would all have a team in the QR. Certainly, the team coefficients would be impacted some. Though it is possible that a confederation like Canada could earn an automatic group bid, but since they have no domestic league, stay at 1 bid. Or one year Nicaragua could pass the stadium check and get a team in that doesn't advance, and Belize didn't. I'd think the Nicaraguan confed would deserve to be above Belize in the rankings.
After 2010-11 Group Stages, Matchday 3 Big move - USA jumps past Panama into 5th overall. Still a ways to go to catch the CFU, but with the performances of Salt Lake and Columbus comparing well with those of the Caribbean teams, it's definitely possible. Code: League Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 10.000 52.625 Honduras 12.750 8.333 4.833 25.917 Canada 16.500 0.500 7.500 24.500 CFU 9.167 8.000 4.833 22.000 United States 4.625 8.375 5.625 18.625 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 18.583 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 3.250 14.250 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 3.500 12.250 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 3.250 12.167 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 7.3333 60.3813 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 3.6111 31.6111 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 8.3333 30.9646 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 8.3333 27.7500 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 4.6111 27.3067 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 5.4167 19.3784 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 5.8750 16.6388 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 4.6111 14.8611 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 13.0878 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 3.0833 9.7500 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 9.3333 9.3333 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.6111 7.6667 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Real Salt Lake0.0000 0.0000 5.8750 5.8750 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 4.5000 4.5000 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 2.1667 2.1667 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 1.8750 1.8750
After 2010-11 Group Stage, Matchday 4 Movement: - Costa Rica jumps past El Salvador into 8th, by virtue of the Saprissa win that I forgot to add to Costa Rica's coefficient last week - Puerto Rico goes past Santos Laguna - Columbus over MLS rival Houston - Olimpia over Montreal - Municipal and Monterrey over Comunicaciones - Joe Public past L.A. Firpo - Real Salt Lake moves past Real Espana, W Connection, L.A. Firpo, and Joe Public - Toronto FC past San Francisco - FAS past San Juan Jabloteh and Isidro Metapan Code: League Coefficient Nation 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Mexico 19.500 23.125 10.750 53.375 Honduras 12.750 8.333 6.167 27.250 Canada 16.500 0.500 8.500 25.500 CFU 9.167 8.000 5.167 22.333 United States 4.625 8.375 6.625 19.625 Panama 9.250 7.000 2.333 18.583 Guatemala 5.000 6.000 4.250 15.250 Costa Rica 5.750 3.167 4.250 13.167 El Salvador 5.250 3.500 4.000 12.750 Nicaragua 0.500 0.000 0.000 0.500 Belize 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Club Coefficient Club 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Overall Cruz Azul 23.4167 29.6313 8.5833 61.6313 UNAM 16.4167 22.6313 0.0000 39.0480 Marathon 14.2500 13.7500 6.0556 34.0556 Toluca 0.0000 22.6313 8.5833 31.2146 Pachuca 0.0000 28.6313 0.0000 28.6313 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 5.7222 28.4178 Santos 19.4167 0.0000 8.5833 28.0000 Atlante 25.4167 0.0000 0.0000 25.4167 Saprissa 8.9167 5.0450 5.4167 19.3784 Columbus 0.0000 10.7638 8.2083 18.9721 Houston 10.5417 7.7638 0.0000 18.3055 Olimpia 10.2500 0.0000 7.0556 17.3056 Montreal 16.5000 0.0000 0.0000 16.5000 Arabe Unido 0.0000 10.3100 2.7778 13.0878 D.C. United 2.5417 9.7638 0.0000 12.3055 Municipal 6.6667 0.0000 5.4167 12.0834 Monterrey 0.0000 0.0000 11.5833 11.5833 Comunicaciones0.0000 9.9800 0.0000 9.9800 Tauro 9.0833 0.0000 0.0000 9.0833 Real Salt Lake0.0000 0.0000 8.2083 8.2083 Joe Public 5.0556 0.0000 2.7222 7.7778 L.A. Firpo 7.7500 0.0000 0.0000 7.7500 W Connection 0.0000 7.6400 0.0000 7.6400 Real Espana 0.0000 6.7500 0.0000 6.7500 Toronto FC 0.0000 0.0000 5.8333 5.8333 San Francisco 5.0833 0.0000 0.0000 5.0833 FAS 0.0000 0.0000 3.3333 3.3333 Isidro Metapan0.0000 3.1550 0.0000 3.1550 SJ Jabloteh 0.0000 2.6400 0.0000 2.6400 Seattle 0.0000 0.0000 2.2083 2.2083
I was specifically looking at Seattle and Joe Public. Both clubs have slight increases in points even though they both lost.
Puerto Rico is part of CFU. September 16th CFU 9.167 8.000 4.833 22.000 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 4.6111 27.3067 September 24th CFU 9.167 8.000 5.167 22.333 Puerto Rico 17.0556 5.6400 5.7222 28.4178 It seems to be a big jump, but it must be in the formula. Same for Seattle, even if they finish with 0 points, they will get part of the USA coefficient.
The club coefficient is intended to (obviously) represent the relative strength of clubs in CONCACAF competition. By including the national coefficient as part of the club coefficient, this is achieved better. A team from Mexico that earns 9 points is likely better than one from the CFU that earns 9, and with the national coefficient included, that is reflected in the club coefficient. Seattle's coefficient went up slightly because of Columbus and Salt Lake's results, while Joe Public's did because of Puerto Rico's draw.
Much appreciated. I'm sure fans of Seattle, Columbus and Toronto will be quick to remind Sounders fans they are being carried along.