Given the manner in which this forum has been moderated I will probably receive an infraction for this, but now that we know that Howard Webb and his crew will work the WC Final, I wonder if MassRef has the stomach to admit that all of his over-analysis in attempting to determine this was pointless and that my simple prediction was correct. Perhaps this will temper the hero-worship of all of his forum disciples. Here's a big ol' raspberry for you.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) Tisk tisk... no need to come down on MassRef for being such a referee geek. A lot of us are like that. He admitted the appointment shocked him. And it just goes to show you that all the stats in the world can never predict what FIFA is EVER going to do on ANY of their committees. Now, let's grow up a little bit. When you get to the paint act like you've been there before.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) MassRef provided insightful, logical, anaylsis based on all thee factors he could consider. That he was wrong for this match, that almost everyone was wrong for this match...meh. If he was right or not, still very interesting stuff to read.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) You aren't going to win this battle, sorry. Not sure why you even bothered trying again. I don't really care who picked Webb on a whim and who didn't. It wasn't a contest or a sweepstakes. I was more interested in learning about the history of WC appointments, what kind of factors go into it, how some of the factors have changed over time, and what might be considered this time around. MassRef provided the majority of this information, which I found quite useful. A few others sprinkled in some interesting tidbits as well. My guess, especially based on the reaction from your previous attempt to poo-poo MassRef's 'analysis,' is that most people agree with me.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) To be fair, MrRC is not a troll. He makes many valuable and insightful posts to these boards. He clearly understands refereeing and is experienced. However, his vendetta against MassRef is beneath him, tiresome, and significantly takes away from the value of many of his posts. When he sticks to analysis you can learn from him. When he resorts to personal vendettas he causes people to skip over his other timeworthy contributions. My recommendation is to learn from him as a referee and and ignore his perry personality.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) The ref forums are about the only refuge from the petty insulting that occurs on most other forums. If you want to be a shipdit, there are plenty of places where it's tolerated and even welcome. Find one of them and take your 'expertise' with you.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) I have to acknowledge the veracity of this post. When I first started contributing to this forum, I had a difference of opinion with MassRef. I didn't know, and still don't fully understand, how the moderation of the forum worked or that he was one. In our debate I received an infraction, but MassRef did not. He and I both admitted that we had been out of line. However, I viewed the uneven punishments as MassRef's friends rushing to his defense because his opinion was challenged. It was as if no one was allowed to dispute the words of this forum guru. That experience soured me, and I recently encountered it again in getting sanctioned by MassRef himself for consistently writing that a certain poster who finally showed himself to be a clear Uruguay fan was incapable of objectively assessing referee decisions involving that national team. In MassRef's opinion I was pestering this poster and ordered me to stop. I disputed that, pointing out that every comment he made showed clear bias and that I was entitled to comment on this and told him to stop censoring my thoughts. No name-calling, no insults, but one of his moderator buddies decided to hit me with another infraction point and delete my response while leaving MassRef's. Again I believed this to be an injustice. So you'll understand if I feel that there exists an elitist clique on this forum which doesn't treat outsiders fairly. Due to my early experience, and confirmed by the most recent one, for some time now I have been on somewhat of a personal crusade to show that MassRef isn't always correct, and that this group of insiders who hang on his every word are failing to properly assess situations. With the appointment for the WC Final, it is now time to put this to rest. MassRef definitely puts a great deal of time and effort into his thought process, but I'm a results oriented guy. All the supporting arguments aren't worth a darn if they don't lead to the correct result. That has been my point with his predictions for the referee crews in this WC. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Of course, I won't say that his is a tale told by an idiot. I have more respect for him than that, even though I do believe that many readers of this forum get distracted by all of the details included in the build up of his arguments and fail to pay proper attention to their conclusions. In the end, the results oriented approach is just how I approach officiating. Do we really care if a referee runs well, looks great in the uniform, and has a pleasant demeanor, if he gets the big calls wrong? I have to believe that we want someone who makes the right decisions.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) Can we move this discussion to another thread please. This is about the world cup final. I agree Celesteforever is a homer. His name means Skyblue forever. Celeste is the name the Uruguyan national team is know as. Biceleste is the nickname for Argentina.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) Thanks for posting all of that, Alberto. Of course, I am certainly aware of those facts and pointed them out to the two moderators who cited me, but to no avail. In this case, your opinion didn't count, even though you are also a moderator. The truth (celeste4ever is a homer) didn't count. All that counted was the opinion of a single moderator, MassRef. So he cited me for constantly posting the truth. He felt that poor celeste was being bothered. Of course, he never considered how annoying celeste's posts that were critical of the referees' decisions which didn't go in favor of Uruguay were to me. It bothered me greatly to see someone criticize the referee crews on what was supposed to be an analytical officiating forum simply because his team didn't get the call. The second infraction which I received was even more laughable. Caesar actually wrote to me via PM that I had ignored the warning of a moderator (MassRef) and that was the reason for my infraction point. Clearly I did no such thing. I even responded to the warning, so how could I have ignored it? Plus, I didn't write another post about celeste. I merely wrote a response telling MassRef to stop censoring me. So Caesar got it wrong too. Yet their incorrectness doesn't matter. I still got sanctioned and I can't sanction them back. The playing field isn't level when one poster can delete the posts of another simply because he disagrees with the opinion expressed. Nothing matters on here but the opinions of a privileged few, and all other opinions are silenced.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) All internet message boards have their flaws. I get pissed too @ some of the posts/posters here but I decided to not waste too much time dwelling on it. Some posters are more frequent and better writers than others and are able to get their points across with more clarity. Other posters chime in only sporadically with less detail. Bottom line for me is ANYONE can post something that I hadn't thought of so I don't dismiss any of them. I try to take them all in and hopefully better myself as a ref.
If anyone wants to carry this on, keep it here. I'm only not deleting it all because I'm mentioned by name so much. If this thread disappears, it's because Caesar or a SuperMod felt it needed to go away.
I'm singled out a lot by the mods on this forum so I think I should have a say. They have little faith in people and are reactionary to soft sarcasm that would be allowed on Day time television. Constantly fun though an endless riot...I would love to bring any of the mods to any other place on the interwebs. Clearly they haven't seen them or they have and don't want their little slice of heaven being destroyed. Continue with the fun though...I talk to MassRef usually once a day when he gives me a warning. Nice guy, plenty smart, just thinks he has to react to every complaint instead of saying "Ya know what that's fine...grow up!"
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) Why do you think that any of what he wrote had merit? My point is that all of it was pure conjecture. No one but the people who sit in the selection room know what factors go into the decision making process or what was considered in selecting the each crew for specific assignments, and we haven't heard from a single one of them! All the "information" which you claim that MassRef has provided has in no way been demonstrated to have any factual impact on the appointments. Such musings should be thought of only as his personal guesses on what might be in the minds of those in charge. For you to characterize his posts as a history of WC referee appointments and it's process is totally misleading. There is no evidence whatsoever that it is done in the way that he states. You want the best evidence that it isn't done in the manner that MassRef posits? He was wrong about who would work the Final. If he really had meaningful insight into how the process worked, he would have correctly predicted the referee crew.
MrRC - let me put it this way. MassRef has a long, long history of quality posting and moderating in the Ref fora. He is, by knowledge and attrition, the guru. He has been the go-to guy for analysis and explanations for many years. Back when I was officiating (5 years ago), I was a semi-regular and any questions about larger points were either answered or clarified (as needed) by MassRef. But we all know he is does not know everything. You seem to have earned the respect of fellow posters in terms of knowledge. That said, this is your first World Cup on BS and we moderate much stricter than normal. A quick scan of your post history suggests you have not had a problem until the World Cup. That suggests all parties have been able to be reasonable to each other, if not come to an outright understanding up until the last few weeks. Why is that? Taken in general, your argument is one we mods hear every World Cup. We would like to have a more patient approach to our moderating, but we cannot simply due to the traffic volume. The WC Ref forum is no different. Now, in reference to your initial post, you seem to have a problem with MassRef specifically. As do most of us, we post with pleasure, not elitism. So what if he is wrong? So what if you are right? He appears to have gotten over it quite quickly. I would hope you could do the same. FFS, does your life change because Webb is doing the Final, or that you correctly predicted and MassRef did not?
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) Much of the information he has posted is FACTUAL. F-A-C-T-S. Dug up, presented for consideration, etc. And then he also offers opinion or analysis. If you don't find any value in it, fine. I think it is funny that you don't. In fact, I think it is embarrassing. It is as if you feel that he has outdone you in this respect. I said it before, I don't give a s$*t that you or anyone else predicted, at some point, that Webb would get the final. To draw similarities between referee appointment prognostication and referee performance as both being a results-oriented business...great. If you think that is a useful theory, awesome. I think it was worthless. For the record, I outrank MassRef as a referee, I'm pretty sure I am a better referee than he is, I think I am pretty much as smart as he is, and there is absolutely NO hero worship coming his way from me. Respect for his contributions to this website, yes. Hero worship, no. You have had quite a few good posts and great points to offer since joining BigSoccer. It's too bad that you feel like you are being picked on. There are pretty clear rules to participating on the forums, and the mods have taken great pains to explain it. You have recently received another explanation from a Mod from another area of the site.
Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) I have nothing to say other than I support the actions taken by MassRef in this instance. If a user has a complaint about moderation the correct step is to start a thread in Customer Service or PM a SuperMod requesting a review of their infraction history. Derailing threads within the forum will be viewed dimly.
Dark Knight Join Date: Dec 1999 You have received an infraction at BigSoccer Dear MrRC, You have received an infraction at BigSoccer. Reason: Trolling - Severe ------- Howdy - Kindly listen you the moderators please. Thanks. ------- This infraction is worth 7 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire. Original Post: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=21299522 Quote: Quote: Originally Posted by MassachusettsRef At the urging of multiple posters, I just excised 14 off-topic posts to another thread. This thread is about the World Cup Final. There's not a bigger or more important game in our sport. It shouldn't be this difficult to keep it on-topic. Thanks. Sure let's banish all of the posts stating that you were incorrect in your prediction for the Final referee and any criticism of your moderating to some place where very few people will ever see them, so that we can move this thread along to something really meaningful--like speculation on what colors the two teams will wear for the game. We all know how important of a factor that will be in determining a champion. Can you ever cease to be involved with some sort of guessing game in advance of a match?
Just so everyone knows, I have been forbidden from posting in the WC refereeing forum. Here is the complete story and the ridiculous decisions of the moderators involved. Above is a copy of an infraction notice which I received from Dark Knight. It is worth SEVEN points! It includes the text of the post which I made that drew this sanction, which of course was deleted from the thread. While it was clearly sarcastic it also legitimately points out that MassRef was removing posts critical of himself, something which should have been reserved for another moderator who wasn't personally involved, and that he was guilty of posting off-topic material himself. He even noted in one of his own posts that what colors the teams will be wearing doesn't have to do with officiating. Yet all of those posts were allowed to remain in the thread. It appears that he was mad because I criticized his little guessing games. At no point did I resort to profanity, name-calling, or sling insults. However, this post is somehow deemed worthy of a SEVEN point infraction penalty! I have to believe that this is overly harsh and probably due to Dark Knight not being a native English-speaker. I make this assumption from his comment, "Kindly listen you the moderators please." The syntax is noticeably foreign. Shortly afterward, without having made another post or even having logged into the forum, Caesar decided to ban me from the WC Refereeing forum entirely. Here is that notice. Was my post that offensive? Perhaps I just struck a nerve with my criticism because this seems so over-reactive. However, I decided to serve my time, just as Suarez did his red card suspension, and wait until after the tournament was over to post again. Unfortunately, when the Final finished and the closing ceremony had been held, my access still had not been restored. Hmmm..... Therefore, I wrote this message to Caesar, "Now that the tournament is over my ban needs to be lifted." Look at the response which I received! Could the actions of this moderator be more capricious and whimsical? While I could easily create a new account and get around Caesar's ban, the principle of the matter is that I shouldn't have to. Just as Suarez served his suspension and then was permitted to come back for the 3rd Place game, I should have been reinstated as the time-line which Caesar specified in his original infraction notice has passed. Now he is changing his mind and is refusing to adhere to what he previously wrote. Perhaps he should have taken more time to craft his original decision, but that is not my fault. I now ask that someone who has more power (a Super Moderator) step in and handle the matter. Caesar has shown himself to not be true to his word and someone who changes his mind as the wind blows. I certainly hope that he doesn't referee in this manner. I certainly hope that he pays more respect to the LOTG and the players competing by giving more consideration to the sanctions which he hands out during a match than those he dispenses on this forum. He may even be a quality referee. It's just a shame that he makes an awful moderator.
FFS, get down off the cross and stop being such a sanctimonious jackass. The above two posts are why I have absolutely no interest in restoring your access. You clearly haven't learned from your ban and I am not about to waste my time and that of other moderators dealing with you, since it is crystal clear that nothing in your posting style will change. We screwed around too much trying to accommodate you in the first place. Rather than writing thousands of words here about why you're so hard done by, you'd be better off trying to understand why you were the only referee who managed to get himself banned from the forum during the tournament and working to rectify that. Either that or start a letter writing campaign to Amnesty. I really don't care. [Gump] And that's all I have to say, about that. [/Gump]
The World Cup referees forums was ridiculosuly moderated. Here is my thread abou it. https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1475785+ As you can see 3 people agree about the moderation on there with me. There were many more too in the referee forums who disagreed with OTT moderation