Combining Position and Function into a Single “Role”

The goal of this thread is simple, to define a system where a player’s position and function (https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/classifying-players-by-role-function-not-position.2009089/) are integrated to create “roles”, and that every team in history can give its 11 players the same 11 roles through time.

I got interested in the idea when thinking about the legacy of numbers in the British system. For example it would be cool to look at the legacy of the “number 8” through time. The number 8 was originally the teams right inside forward. Inside rights tended to be more playmakers than inside lefts (not always) and when the transition to a four man front line was made (4-2-4) from the traditional five man front lines (WM, pyramid) the number 8 was associated with the forward who had withdrawn into the midfield. The classic example is Didi with Brazil. In Brazil this role was later taken in the national team by Gerson, Rivellino, and Falcao. The number 8 then became synonymous with the position/function of midfield playmaker.

I wanted to create roles that where this kind of history can be tracked through time. This is my attempt to combined position and function to create 11 “roles” that can be applied to any team in history, and create a platform that is more accurate and informative for projects like all time rankings by position or teams of the season.

Many of the roles are paired by position but differentiated by function. For example central defender, wingers, and midfielders are all pair roles, but each is differentiated within one team by function. Each team will have one offensive/aggressive midfielder and one defensive/conservative midfielder. So a very aggressive team might have very offensive oriented midfielder as the defensive/conservative midfielder in their team (think Real Madrid a few years ago when Kroos was the deepest midfielder) and a defensive team might have a defensive oriented midfielder as their offensive/aggressive midfielder is they played a pair of midfielders with defensive tendencies (think Arsenal in 98-00 with Viera and Petit). The point is the system is relational. In this system Arsenal did not play multiple defensive midfielders, which you might conclude looking at players and what they are doing in an absolute sense. Every team will have one midfielder designated as more offensive/aggressive and one as more defensive/conservative. This makes it far easier to compare players across teams and eras. As time progresses roles will often be occupied by more defensive players, as the number of forwards on the pitch were much higher in early football. Also in a given year players in the same roles may be more or less aggressive reflecting differences in team’s tactics.

I will now explain the 11 roles and how they relate to players position and function throughout time and the different tactical approaches and formations that were present. Names of roles with first have an adjective to describe function and then a noun to describe the position.

“Goalkeeper”

This is the first role and it is synonymous with the position of goalkeeper, no further explanation needed.

 

“Destructive Central Defender”

The function of the Destructive Central Defender (DCD) can be summarized as the most defensive player on the pitch. In regards to position the DCD is a central defender and generally the one most likely to mark opponent’s center forward. In systems with a pair of central defenders (pyramid fullbacks, flat back four center backs) the DCD is the more defensive of the two central defenders. In the WM with three primary defenders the DCD is always the center back. DCD can be a sweeper in some systems (Gonzalez for Uruguay in 1950), but because most sweepers functioned as an extra midfielder when their team has possession, DCD would be one of the markers in front of the sweeper.

Pyramid: The DCD is the most defensive player of the fullback pair. When looking at the formation of the Austrian Wunderteam from the early 1930s (see below) Karl Rainer is the DCD, as his fullback partner for club and country Josef Blum of often cited as a ball playing fullback who was very involved in building play out from the back.



In some cases both fullbacks have a similar function, neither being obviously more destructive or constructive than the other. In these cases I do the best I can as one must be assigned DCD.

WM: In this systems the DCD is always identified by his position, center back. The center back was formerly a center half that dropped into central defense between the fullbacks and was responsible for marking center forwards. This formation was initiated in England in the 1930s and was followed around the world later. A classic example is Real Madrid from the late 1950s where Jose Santamaria was a dominating center back in a WM and held the role of DCD.



4-2-4: The next tactical innovation from the WM was dropping a forward into the midfield and another midfielder into defense. This system is almost a transition period to a flat back four, as the midfielder dropping into defense is defined/identified as a fourth back. As long as the two central defenders are clearly defined as a center back and a fourth back, the center back will still be by definition the DCD. As Brazil innovated the new 4-2-4 system in the late 50s the DCD was the center back Hector Bellini.



Modern systems with four man defenses: The majority of football systems from the 1970s till modern time played with a flat back four (e.g. 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, etc.). The two central defenders no longer have any clear demarcation between fourth back and center back. In these systems a similar method will be applied as seen with the pyramid. The more defensive of the two center backs will be considered the DCD. A classic example in Manchester United in 2008. Between the two central defenders one takes a larger portion of the passing/building from the back function, Rio Ferdinand, while the other is more concerned with strictly defending, Nemanja Vidic. Vidic is the DCD.



In some cases it is not obviously clear who of the center back pair is the DCD (e.g. currently Atletico Madrid side neither is particularly constructive), in these cases one player must be the DCD so I do the best I can.

Modern systems with five man defenses: In systems that play three center backs (2017 Chelsea or Juventus from the last five years of so) or five man defenses where a sweeper plays behind two stoppers (Germany 1990) the DCD is identified through a combination of role and position. In all three of the teams mentioned above the center most of the three defenders (Luiz, Bonucci, Augenthaler) is the one most associated with build up play. I would make the Combative Central Defender in these teams the more defensive of the other two center backs (Cahill, Chiellini, Kohler).



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Crompton > Nasazzi > Caligaris/Rava/Quincoces > Salomon/Franklin > Jonquet/Santamaria/Wright > Shesternev > Forster/Ruggeri > Kohler > Ayala/Desailly > Nesta/Cannavaro/Stam > Godin/Chiellini.

“Constructive Central Defender”

The Constructive Central Defender’s (CCD) function is primarily of a defender but one capable and willing to play a more constructive role from the back. Through time this player will operate in a number of different positions but will always be centrally located in the pitch and in defense.

Pyramid: The CCD is the most constructive/skilled player of the fullback pair. Going back to the example of the Wunderteam Blum is the more skilled/constructive of the two fullbacks and is an example of the CCD in the pyramid.



WM: In this formation the CCD will be the more defensive of the two halfbacks. With the move of the center half to center back the more defensive of the two halfbacks often marks inside forwards and is a link between defense and midfield. This role is a precursor to the fourth back in the 4-2-4. In the WM of Hungary’s Golden Team of the 1950s this role was played by Zakarias.



In some cases neither halfback in a WM has an explicit tactical role of dropping deeper. I will still assign the more conservative of the two the role of CCD.

4-2-4: The next tactical innovation from the WM was dropping a forward into the midfield and another midfielder into defense. This system is almost a transition period to a flat back four, as the midfielder dropping into defense is defined/identified as a fourth back. As long as the two central defenders are clearly defined as a center back and a fourth back, the fourth back will still be by definition the CCD. Again with the example being Brazil of the late 50s the fourth back is Orlando.



Modern systems with four man defenses: The majority of football systems from the 1970s till modern time played with a flat back four (e.g. 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, etc.). The two central defenders no longer have any clear demarcation between fourth back and center back. In these systems a similar method will be applied as seen with the pyramid. The more constructive of the two center backs will be considered the CCD. A classic example in Manchester United in 2008. Between the two central defenders one takes a larger portion of the passing/building from the back function, Rio Ferdinand, who is the Creative Central Defender in this team. This role will often go to creative sweepers in four man defenses like Beckenbauer of Scirea.




In some cases neither of the center back pair is particularly creative/constructive (e.g. currently Atletico Madrid side), because of the relational nature of the system one player must be the CCD so I do the best I can.

Modern systems with five man defenses: In systems that play three center backs (2017 Chelsea or Juventus from the last five years of so) or five man defenses where a sweeper plays behind two stoppers (Germany 1990) the CCD is identified through a combination of role and position. In all three of the teams mentioned above the center most of the three defenders (Luiz, Bonucci, Augenthaler) is the one most associated with build up play and is the CCD.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Arnott/Ross > Rosetta/Allemandi > Da Guia > Mackay/Pluskal > Moore > Beckenbauer/Figueroa > Passarella/Scirea/Krol > Koeman/Sammer/Blanc > Pique/Ramos/Bonucci.

 

“Conservative Secondary Defender”

Secondary defenders are players who assist the primary defenders (DCD and CCD) in defending but have other functions as well. Through time the role is comprised of players who are halfbacks and fullbacks. This is another paired position as there will be an Aggressive Secondary Defender (ASD) in addition to the Conservative Secondary Defender (CSD). These players will pair as fullbacks in most modern systems and wing halves in many older systems.

Pyramid: In Pyramid systems from South America and Continental Europe that featured an attacking center half the secondary defenders will be paired wing halves. Some pyramid teams had stopper center halves and a more offensive wing half (Andrade for Uruguay in 1924), in these cases the two secondary defenders will be a center half and wing half. In all cases the two most conservative halfbacks in any pyramid system will be the secondary defenders, and the most conservative of those two secondary defenders is the CSD. At the 1930 World Cup the CSDs for Uruguay and Argentina respectively are Gestido and Arico Suarez.



WM: With the switch to a three defender system the secondary defenders became the fullback pair in almost all situations. In the WM both fullbacks are usually conservative so it may be difficult to differentiate the two positions. With the Hungarian Golden Team Lantos spent the most time attacking from the footage I have seen so Buzansky would be the CSD.



4-2-4/Modern Four Man Defenses: In all of these formation the secondary defenders are the fullback pair and the CSD is the most conservative player of those two. Classic examples of CSDs in these systems are from the Italian systems from the 1960s-80s where fullbacks were clearly demarcated into a more offensive and defensive player, with Gentile and Burgnich being the CSDs.





In some cases neither fullback is particular conservative, especially in Brazilian flat back four systems (e.g. Santos/Santos, Junior/Leonardo, Carlos/Cafu) but because of the relation nature of this system, Djalma Santos, Leonardo, and Cafu would all be CSDs in those formations.

Five Man Defenses: In five man defensive systems the CSD is usually the one of the stoppers playing in front of the sweeper. To follow the Germany 1990 example it would be Buchwald. The other secondary defender would be the more conservative wing back (Berthold) and the more aggressive wing back (Brehme) would be represented a role usually used for wingers and midfielders.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Crabtree/Thomson > Meiklejohn/Keenor/Ferraris > Gambetta/Bauer > Nilsson/Young > Burgnich/Matri > Suurbier/Vogts > Gentile/Bergomi > Thurman > Cole.

“Aggressive Secondary Defender”

halfbacks and fullbacks. These players will pair as fullbacks in most modern systems and wing halves in older systems. The more aggressive of the two is the ASD.

Pyramid: In Pyramid systems from South America and Continental Europe that featured an attacking center half the secondary defenders will be paired wing halves. Some pyramid teams had stopper center halves and a more offensive wing half (Andrade for Uruguay in 1924), in these cases the two secondary defenders will be a center half and wing half. In all cases the two most conservative halfbacks in any pyramid system will be the secondary defenders, and the more aggressive of those two secondary defenders is the ASD. At the 1930 World Cup the ASDs for Uruguay and Argentina respectively are Fernandez and Evaristo.



WM: With the switch to a three defender system the secondary defenders became the fullback pair in almost all situations. In the WM both fullbacks are usually conservative so it may be difficult to differentiate the two positions. With the Hungarian Golden Team Lantos spent the most time attacking from the footage I have seen so he is the ASD.



4-2-4/Modern Four Man Defenses: In all of these formation the secondary defenders are the fullback pair and the ASD is the most aggressive player of those two. Classic examples of ASDs in these systems are from the Italian systems from the 1960s-80s where fullbacks were clearly demarcated into a more offensive and defensive player, with Cabrini and Facchetti being the ASDs.





In some cases both fullbacks are aggressive, especially in Brazilian flat back four systems (e.g. Santos/Santos, Junior/Leonardo, Carlos/Cafu) but because of the relation nature of this system, Nilton Santos, Junior, and Roberto Carlos would all be ASDs, and the only ones labelled as such in these formations.

Five Man Defenses: In five man defensive systems the ASD is the more conservative wing back (Berthold) and the more aggressive wing back (Brehme) would represent a role usually used for wingers and midfielders.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: McWilliams/Cowan > Nausch/Hapgood > VR Andrade/Stankovic/Bryne > Santos/Carlso Alberto > Facchetti > Cabrini/Junior > Maldini/Carlos > Lahm/Alves.

 

“Controlling Midfielder”

The function of this role is to control/dictate the game from the center of the pitch, it is a role with different positions through time, first as halfbacks that supported the attacks, and then as defensive midfielders who shielded the defense.

Pyramid: In a pyramid system the Controlling Midfielder (CM) is the most advanced halfback, or the one most involved in supporting the attack. In many South American and Continental teams this is an attacking center half (Smistik, Varela, etc). Sometimes this player can be a wing half (Andrade for Uruguay in 1924). In British pyramid systems this role is more often occupied by wing halves. Below is the Wunderteam that employed the attacking center half Smistik in the role of CM.



In Uruguay’s Olympic side in 1924 Andrade was the CM who received rave reviews for his ability to play a box to box style that supported the attack, as oppose to the more conservative style of play from European wing halves at the time.



WM: In the WM the CM is defined the same way as it is in the pyramid, as the most attacking halfback. The halfback line now consists of two players with a three man defense. A classic example of the CM as a halfback in the WM is Masopust with the Czechs in 1962.



4-2-4: The continued evolution of tactics leads to another halfback being dropped into the defensive line as a fourth back. In this formation the CM is the sole halfback that remains in the midfield and is joined by a removed forward. In the classic Brazilian example of this formation the CM is Zito.



Modern Systems: In all modern systems the CM is defined more by function. Whether a team plays with two or three midfielders, and whether the midfield is playing in front of a four or five man defense, the CM is always the most conservative member of the midfield. Classic examples are Roy Keane with Manchester United or Sergio Busquests with Barcelona.





The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Needham > Pesek/Andrade > Smistik/Monti > Varela/Bozsik > Netto/Blanchflower/Masopust > Zito/Pirri > Matthaus/Rijkaard > Redondo/Keane > Busquets.

 

“Playmaking Midfielder”

The history of the Playmaking Midfielder (PM) is closely tied to the number 8 jersey. It begins as part of the inside trio in five man attacks and then become the classic midfield playmaker.

Pyramid and WM: Both of these formations employee a five man attack and in both systems the PM is defined in the same way, as the most removed/playmaking forward in the inside trio. In the vast majority of cases this role will be occupied by a playmaking inside forward, a classic example is Alex James in the great Arsenal sides of the 1930s.



In rare cases I will place a center forward as a PM. In most cases another role I have created is closely tied to the position of center forward in a five man attack. The only times I would name a center forward as PM and therefore deepest and most playmaking of the inside trio would be in very exaggerated cases. For example, Kopa with France in 1958. Watching those games the function Kopa is filling is clearly a creative midfielder despite that his position is center forward. The same goes for Hidegkuti who I would classify as the PM in Hungary’s Golden team. He is clearly and unquestioningly and deepest and most creative player of the inside trio. In other cases where center forwards are identified like playmakers, like Sindelar or Di Stefano, I would not put them in the PM role, as they still seem to be center forwards who play with a playmaking style or that sometimes drop deep, as oppose to Kopa and Hidegkuti who stayed deep the entire game and would not likely be identified as a center forward to an observer who had not seen the lineups on paper.



There are also awkward situations where all three players in an inside trio are very much goal scoring players. For example Hungary had an excellent team around 1950 and were often playing an inside trio of Kocsis-Deak-Puskas, three players known for their goal scoring style. It feels very strange to call one of these players a PM but in these types of cases it is necessary.

4-2-4: In this formation on of the forwards from the inside trio drops into the midfield to act as a playmaker. This removed forward will always be the PM in a 4-2-4, the innovator of this position was Didi with Brazil.



Modern Systems: In all modern systems the PM is defined more by function, but must be a midfielder, not a forward. Whether a team plays with two or three midfielders, and whether the midfield is playing in front of a four or five man defense, the PM is always the most creative member of the midfield. He can be a player who plays closer to the forwards (Platini) or closer to defenders (Pirlo). In cases where two creative midfielders are present (Xavi/Iniesta) I would make the player most central to playmaking/building attacks as the PM (Xavi). For secondary playmakers like Iniesta with Barca or Seedorf with Milan there will be another role.





In some modern systems a two man midfield can be made up of two relatively combative players, e.g. Arsenal 1998 with Viera and Petit. One of these players must be designated as PM and the other as CM.

The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Walker > Scarone > James/Ferrari > Zizinho/Sastre > Hidegkuti/Liedholm > Coluna/Kopa/Suarez/Didi/Charlton > Rivellino/Netzer > Platini/Falcao > Zidane > Xavi/Pirlo.

 

“Supporting Forward”

The history of the Supporting Forward (SF) is closely associate with the number 10 jersey. This role is generally defined by position, as the the player who plays closest to the Central Forward (CF). The SF can play this position with a playmaking style like Rivera or Schiaffino or a more direct goal scoring style like Puskas or Eusebio, but both are defined as SFs if they play closest to the CF.

Pyramid and WM: In both these systems the SF is not the most advanced player in the inside trio (CF) or the most removed player in the inside trio (PM), but the player in the middle. The player playing closest to the CF. In the vast majority of cases this will be the more aggressive inside forward. In rare cases where a center forward plays the role of PM the SF is the less aggressive inside forward. An example of this is Hungary’s Golden Team where Puskas is the SF playing off another inside forward, Kocsis, who is the CF.



The more regular case of a SF for a five man attack would be Meazza for Italy as a SF playing off the CF Piola or Schiavio.



4-2-4: In this formation the SF is the inside forward that was not removed to the midfield. Pele is the classic case.



Modern Systems with Two Strikers/Forwards: In systems like the 4-4-2 the SF is one of the pair of forwards who drops deeper and moves away from central locations the most often. Bergkamp for Arsenal fits this role.



Modern Systems with Three Forwards: In a 4-3-3 the SF is the most direct player between the wide forwards. An example of this is Cristiano Ronaldo for Real Madrid.



Another variation of a three forward system is two strikers ahead of a third forward or Trequartisa. In this formation the less central/direct of the two strikers is the SF, in the case of Roma 2001 it is Montella.



Modern single forward/striker systems: The 4-2-3-1 is the most common one striker formation. Despite the fact that only one player is classified as a forward (always the CF in this formation), the player playing closest to the CF will be the SF. Whether that player is one of the wide players or the central player in the three midfielders supporting the striker will determine whether the formation is basically treated as a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2. In the case of Arsenal in recent season, Sanchez a wide player in the three players near the striker, plays closest to the center forward and is the SF. This causes the formation to be treated like a 4-3-3 with Ozil as a PM.



In recent season Tottenham have played the same formation as Arsenal, but the central player of the three players supporting the striker, Dele Ali, plays closest to the central striker. This formation is now basically treated like a 4-4-2 with the wide players in the three being treated as wingers and Ali as the SF.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Bloomer > Seoane > Nejedly > Moreno > Puskas > Pele/Eusebio > Daglish/Zico > Baggio > Rivaldo/Ronaldinho > CR7.

“Central Forward”

The CF the player playing closest to the opponent’s goal. The position is close to synonymous with the center forward/striker position.

Formations with odd numbers of forwards: Whether it is the modern 4-3-3 or a pyramaid/WM formation, in formations with an odd number of forwards the center forward will almost always be considered the CF. The rule I made to keep this simple is that a center forward will always be CF unless they are extremely removed (as discussed earlier with Kopa/Hidgekuti) and then they are a PM. I do not want to have cases where I am parsing between an inside forward and a center forward to see who play slightly further up the pitch and who to call the CF and SF. A center forward is always a CF unless it is a very unorthodox situation and they are a PM. Di Stefano is a classic example with the CF in an odd number of forwards formation. Despite the fact that he did make plays and sometimes dropped deeper than Puskas, he was still playing a recognizable center forward and is therefore the CF in this formation.



Formations with even numbers of forwards: Most commonly seen in a 4-2-4 or 4-4-2 with a pair of forwards, the CF in this case is the player spending the most time near goal and the player who roams more and plays off the CF is the SF. In Manchester United’s 4-4-2 that won the treble in 1999 the two forwards play similar roles, but I would say Cole is the CF and Yorke the SF.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Smith > Dean/Gallacher > Sindelar/Sarosi/Erico/Piola/Leonidas > Ademir/Pontoni > Kocsis/Nordahl > Spencer/Albert > Muller > Careca/Lineker > Romario/Van Basten > Ronaldo/Shearer > Suarez/Lewandowski.

 

“Removed Winger/Auxiliary”

This position will play a variety of roles in a variety of formations, but for most of football history it will represent the more conservative winger.

Formations with wingers (Pyramaid, WM, 4-2-4, 4-4-2): In a formation with wingers the Removed Winger/Auxiliary (RWA) is the more conservative, less aggressive winger. The classic examples of this position are Zagallo for Brazil winning back to back World Cups playing opposite Garrincha, or Munoz playing opposite Loustau for River Plate in the 1940s.



In some teams both wingers are aggressive free roaming players. For example Celtic of the late 60s and early 70s both wingers, Johnstone and Lennox, had freedom to pop up anywhere in attack. In this case I would say Johnstone is the RWA as Lennox is more involved in the most advanced function on the pitch, getting in the box and scoring goals.



Formations without wingers: In formations without wingers, the most common of which being some variation of the 4-3-3, the RWA will become the third midfielder. The RWA can be identified in the midfield by process of elimination using function. After identify and PM (player most associate with creative role) and CM (player most associated with defensive role) in a three man midfield the remaining player is the RWA, which can have a number of functions. For attacking teams this player can be a secondary playmaker like Ineista for Barcelona (Xavi PM, Busquest CM) or Seedorf for AC Milan (Pirlo PM, Gattuso CM).



Another common role for the RWA to have in a three man midfield is that of a box to box player in more conservative tactics, like Viera for France (Zidane PM, Makelele/Deschamps CM) or Taredelli for Juventus/Italy (Platini/Antononi PM, Benetti/Oriali/Bonnini CM). This player is free from primary playmaking or defensive duties and does both depending on the situation.



In a formation with a five man defense the RWA will be identified as the most aggressive of the two wing backs. This makes sense as an aggressive wingback preforms similar functions to a defensive winger. An example is Brehme with Germany in 1990.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Bassett > Morton > Sas > Matthews/Munoz > Gainza > Johnstone/Corso/Simoes > Gadocha/Neeskens > Tardelli/Brehme > Beckham/Figo > Seedorf > Iniesta.

“Advanced Winger/Auxiliary”

This role will represent two different positions through time.

Formations with wingers: In a formation with wingers the Advanced Winger/Auxiliary (AWA) is the winger who is most aggressive in attack and most advanced in the positions he takes up. The most famous wingers of all time occupied this position, like Garrincha for Brazil.



Formations without wingers: The most common formation without wingers is a 4-3-3. The AWA will play the role of the third forward. In most situations the center forward will always be the CF, the wide forward playing closest to him is the SF, and the remaining wide forward is the AWA. An example is current Barcelona or Real Madrid: Suarez CF, Messi SF, Neymar AWA or Benzeman CF, Ronaldo SF, Bale AWA.



Another variation of a three forward system is where one forward plays behind two strikers as a Trequartisa. An example of this formation is from Roma 2001. Totti plays the position of Trequartisa which will always be identified as the AWA in this formation.



The legacy of great players closely associate with this role through time would look something like this: Meredith > Jackson > Orsi/Basten > Loustau > Julinho/Finney/Czibor > Garrincha/Best/Hamrin > Dzajic/Jairzinho > > Giggs/Stoichkov > Nedved > Neymar.

 

As an exercise look at Comme's rankings for this past season ** and *** players by positions he gave them, vs roles as described above.

Goalkeeper

Gianluigi Buffon (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals ***
Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich and Germany) 26 games, 0 goals ***
Branko Oblak (Atletico Madrid and Slovenia) 30 games, 0 goals **
Gianluigi Donnarumma (Milan and Italy) 38 games, 0 goals **
Hugo Lloris (Tottenham Hotspur and France) 34 games, 0 goals **
Thibaut Courtois (Chelsea and Belgium) 36 games, 0 goals **

Fullback

Marcelo (Real Madrid and Brazil) 30 games, 2 goals ***
Alex Sandro (Juventus and Brazil) 27 games, 3 goals ***
Dani Carvajal (Real Madrid and Spain) 23 games, 0 goals ***
Dani Alves (Juventus and Brazil) 19 games, 2 goals ***
Filipe Luis (Atletico Madrid and Brazil) 34 games, 3 goals **

Center-back

Leonardo Bonucci (Juventus and Italy) 29 games, 3 goals ***
Sergio Ramos (Real Madrid and Spain) 28 games, 7 goals ***
Mats Hummels (Bayern Munich and Germany) 27 games, 1 goal **

David Luiz (Chelsea and Brazil) 33 games, 1 goal **
Toby Alderweireld (Tottenham and Belgium) 30 games, 1 goal **
Cesar Azpilicueta (Chelsea and Spain) 38 games, 1 goal **


Defensive Midfielder

N’Golo Kante (Chelsea and France) 35 games, 1 goal ***
Casemiro (Real Madrid and Brazil) 20 games, 5 goals **
Tiemouye Bakayoko (Monaco and France) 32 games, 2 goals **
Steven N’Zonzi (Sevilla and France) 35 games, 2 goals **

Central Midfielder

Luka Modric (Real Madrid and Croatia) 25 games, 1 goal ***
Toni Kroos (Real Madrid and Germany) 29 games, 3 goals ***
Thiago Alcantara (Bayern Munich and Spain) 27 games, 6 goals ***
Naby Keita (RB Leipzig and Guinea) 31 games, 8 goals **
Fabinho (Monaco and Brazil) 37 games, 9 goals **
Radja Nainngolan (Roma and Belgium) 37 games, 11 goals **

Attacking Midfielder

Dele Alli (Tottenham and England) 37 games, 18 goals ***
Bernardo Silva (Monaco and Portugal) 37 games, 8 goals ***
Emil Forsberg (RB Leipzig and Sweden) 30 games, 8 goals **
Isco (Real Madrid and Spain) 30 games, 10 goals **
David Silva (Manchester City and Spain) 34 games, 4 goals **
Christian Eriksen (Tottenham and Denmark) 36 games, 8 goals **
Marek Hamsik (Napoli and Slovakia) 38 games, 12 goals **

Winger

Eden Hazard (Chelsea and Belgium) 36 games, 16 goals ***
Arjen Robben (Bayern Munich and Netherlands) 26 games, 13 goals **
Sadio Mane (Liverpool and Senegal) 27 games, 13 goals **
Ousmane Dembele (Borussia Dortmund and France) 32 games, 6 goals **
Mo Salah (Roma and Egypt) 31 games, 15 goals **
Thomas Lemar (Monaco and France) 34 games, 9 goals **

Forwards

Lionel Messi (Barcelona and Argentina) 34 games 37 goals ***
Neymar (Barcelona and Brazil) 30 games, 13 goals **
Paulo Dybala (Juventus and Argentina) 31 games, 11 goals **
Alexis Sanchez (Arsenal and Chile) 38 games, 24 goals **
Antoine Griezmann (Atletico Madrid and France) 36 games, 16 goals **
Alejandro Gomez (Atalanta and Argentina) 37 games, 16 goals **
Iago Aspas (Celta Vigo and Spain) 32 games, 19 goals **
Kylian Mbappe (Monaco and France) 29 games, 15 goals **

Striker

Robert Lewandowski (Bayern Munich and Poland) 33 games, 30 goals ***
Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid and Portugal) 29 games, 25 goals ***
Luis Suarez (Barcelona and Uruguay) 35 games, 29 goals ***
Harry Kane (Tottenham and England) 30 games, 29 goals ***
Dries Mertens (Napoli and Belgium) 35 games, 28 goals ***
Pierre Emerick-Aubameyang (Borussia Dortmund and Gabon) 32 games, 31 goals ***
Edinson Cavani (Paris Saint-Germain and Uruguay) 36 games, 35 goals **
Edin Dzeko (Roma and Bosnia) 37 games, 29 goals **
Andrea Belotti (Torino and Italy) 35 games, 26 goals **
Gonzalo Higuain (Juventus and Argentina) 38 games, 24 goals **
Mauro Icardi (Inter and Argentina) 34 games, 24 goals **
Romelu Lukaku (Everton and Belgium) 37 games, 25 goals **
Alexandre Lacazette (Lyon and France) 30 games, 28 goals **

vs

Goalkeeper

Gianluigi Buffon (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 0 goals ***
Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich and Germany) 26 games, 0 goals ***
Branko Oblak (Atletico Madrid and Slovenia) 30 games, 0 goals **
Gianluigi Donnarumma (Milan and Italy) 38 games, 0 goals **
Hugo Lloris (Tottenham Hotspur and France) 34 games, 0 goals **
Thibaut Courtois (Chelsea and Belgium) 36 games, 0 goals **

Destructive Central Defender

Toby Alderweireld (Tottenham and Belgium) 30 games, 1 goal **

Constructive Central Defender

Leonardo Bonucci (Juventus and Italy) 29 games, 3 goals ***
Sergio Ramos (Real Madrid and Spain) 28 games, 7 goals ***
Mats Hummels (Bayern Munich and Germany) 27 games, 1 goal **
David Luiz (Chelsea and Brazil) 33 games, 1 goal **

Conservative Secondary Defender

Alex Sandro (Juventus and Brazil) 27 games, 3 goals ***
Dani Carvajal (Real Madrid and Spain) 23 games, 0 goals ***
Cesar Azpilicueta (Chelsea and Spain) 38 games, 1 goal **

Aggressive Secondary Defender

Marcelo (Real Madrid and Brazil) 30 games, 2 goals ***
Filipe Luis (Atletico Madrid and Brazil) 34 games, 3 goals **

Controlling Midfielder

N’Golo Kante (Chelsea and France) 35 games, 1 goal ***
Casemiro (Real Madrid and Brazil) 20 games, 5 goals **
Tiemouye Bakayoko (Monaco and France) 32 games, 2 goals **
Steven N’Zonzi (Sevilla and France) 35 games, 2 goals **

Playmaking Midfielder

Luka Modric (Real Madrid and Croatia) 25 games, 1 goal ***
Thiago Alcantara (Bayern Munich and Spain) 27 games, 6 goals ***
Naby Keita (RB Leipzig and Guinea) 31 games, 8 goals **
Fabinho (Monaco and Brazil) 37 games, 9 goals **
Radja Nainngolan (Roma and Belgium) 37 games, 11 goals **
Marek Hamsik (Napoli and Slovakia) 38 games, 12 goals **

Removed Winger/Auxiliary

Toni Kroos (Real Madrid and Germany) 29 games, 3 goals ***
Bernardo Silva (Monaco and Portugal) 37 games, 8 goals ***
Dani Alves (Juventus and Brazil) 19 games, 2 goals ***
David Silva (Manchester City and Spain) 34 games, 4 goals **
Christian Eriksen (Tottenham and Denmark) 36 games, 8 goals **

Advanced Winger/Auxiliary

Neymar (Barcelona and Brazil) 30 games, 13 goals **
Paulo Dybala (Juventus and Argentina) 31 games, 11 goals **
Arjen Robben (Bayern Munich and Netherlands) 26 games, 13 goals **
Sadio Mane (Liverpool and Senegal) 27 games, 13 goals **
Ousmane Dembele (Borussia Dortmund and France) 32 games, 6 goals **
Emil Forsberg (RB Leipzig and Sweden) 30 games, 8 goals **
Isco (Real Madrid and Spain) 30 games, 10 goals **
Thomas Lemar (Monaco and France) 34 games, 9 goals **

Supporting Forward

Lionel Messi (Barcelona and Argentina) 34 games 37 goals ***
Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid and Portugal) 29 games, 25 goals ***
Eden Hazard (Chelsea and Belgium) 36 games, 16 goals ***
Dele Alli (Tottenham and England) 37 games, 18 goals ***
Alexis Sanchez (Arsenal and Chile) 38 games, 24 goals **
Antoine Griezmann (Atletico Madrid and France) 36 games, 16 goals **
Alejandro Gomez (Atalanta and Argentina) 37 games, 16 goals **
Iago Aspas (Celta Vigo and Spain) 32 games, 19 goals **
Kylian Mbappe (Monaco and France) 29 games, 15 goals **
Mo Salah (Roma and Egypt) 31 games, 15 goals **

Central Forward

Robert Lewandowski (Bayern Munich and Poland) 33 games, 30 goals ***
Luis Suarez (Barcelona and Uruguay) 35 games, 29 goals ***
Harry Kane (Tottenham and England) 30 games, 29 goals ***
Dries Mertens (Napoli and Belgium) 35 games, 28 goals ***
Pierre Emerick-Aubameyang (Borussia Dortmund and Gabon) 32 games, 31 goals ***
Edinson Cavani (Paris Saint-Germain and Uruguay) 36 games, 35 goals **
Edin Dzeko (Roma and Bosnia) 37 games, 29 goals **
Andrea Belotti (Torino and Italy) 35 games, 26 goals **
Gonzalo Higuain (Juventus and Argentina) 38 games, 24 goals **
Mauro Icardi (Inter and Argentina) 34 games, 24 goals **
Romelu Lukaku (Everton and Belgium) 37 games, 25 goals **
Alexandre Lacazette (Lyon and France) 30 games, 28 goals **

 

Sandro should be aggressive, not conservative.

 

Here is a rough assignment of roles for some England all time greats. Let me know if you think any of the players are in the wrong roles.

Goalkeeper
Gordon Banks
Peter Shilton
Ray Clemence
Samuel Hardy
Frank Swift
David Seaman
Harry Hibbs

Destructive Central Defender

Billy Wright
Bob Crompton
Neil Franklin
John Terry
Sol Campbell
Jacky Charlton
Roy Goodall
Roy Mcfarland
Tony Adams
Phil Thompson
Stan Cullis
Terry Butcher
Norman Hunter
Wilf Copping

Constructive Central Defenders

Bobby Moore
Rio Ferdinand
Jimmy Crabtree
Ernie Blenkinsop
Des Walker
Warney Cresswell
Colin Todd
Percy Walters
Jesse Pennington

Conservative Secondary Defenders

Eddie Hapgood
Ray Wilson
George Hardwick
Frank Forman
Billy Wedlock
Viv Anderson

Aggressive Secondary Defenders

Jimmy Armfield
Roger Byrne
Ashley Cole
Stuart Pearce
Alf Ramsey
Johnny Holt
George Cohen
George Male

Controlling Midfielder

Ernest Needham
Duncan Edwards
Emlyn Hughes
Jack Reynolds
Nobbie Stiles
Alan Mullery
Ray Wilkins

Playmaking Midfielder

Bobby Charlton
Bryan Robson
Steven Gerrard
Frank Lampard
Johnny Haynes
Glenn Hoddle
Paul Scholes
Alan Ball
Paul Gascoigne
Colin Bell
Wilf Mannion

Removed Winger/Auxiliary

Stanley Matthews
Billy Bassett
David Beckham
Sammy Crooks
Charlie Athersmith
Joe Hulme

Advanced Winger/Auxiliary

Tom Finney
Cliff Bastin
John Barnes
Cris Waddle
Eric Brook
Charlie Bambridge
Dennis Hodgetts
Fred Spiksley

Supporting Forward

Jimmy Greaves
Kevin Keegan
Steve Bloomer
Raich Carter
Billy Walker
Wayne Rooney
Roger Hunt
Charlie Buchan
Micheal Owen
David Jack
W.N Cobbold
Fred Dewhurst
Peter Beardsley

Central Forward

G.O. Smith
Gary Lineker
Alan Shearer
Dixie Dean
John Goodall
Tommy Lawton
Nat Lofthouse
Jackie Milburn
Vivian Woodward
Stan Mortensen
Geoff Hurst
Tommy Taylor
Ted Drake

 

Franklin would be a Destructive Central Defender by nature of his position, center back in a WM. The problem here I think is my name for the position (Maybe Primary Central
Defender might work better for a description of the role, as some great center backs in WMs were not necessarily destructive players like Franklin and Wright), it does not describe Franklin well, as you said being a good passer from the back was one of his main attributes. Destructive Central Defender would always have to be the center back in a WM as far as I can tell. I can't imagine another player in a team playing that formation having a more strictly defensive role than the center back.

In reference to Robson, the important distinction to remember for the Removed Auxiliary is that the position only describes a midfielder in a three man midfield. In a three man midfield the third player (not the playmaker or controller but the RA) is often a box to box player, but not all box to box midfielders are RAs. Robson as far as I know played in traditional 4-4-2 alignments with two wingers on his team, the more reserved winger would be the RA. Robson would always be the Playmaking Midfielder or Controlling Midfielder, depending on his partner, as Robson is versatile and can play both roles. When paired with Wilkins in Midfielder Robson would be the playmaker, but when paired with Whiteside (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_FA_Cup_Final) he would be the controller.

 

As for the Ball example is is interesting to look at his role in the 66 team as the wingless wonders were an unusual formation.

I would put the team in theses roles

CF: Hurst
SF: Hunt
AWA: Peters
RWA: Ball
PM: Charlton
CM: Stiles
ASD: Cohen
CSD: Wilson
CCD: Moore
DCD: Charlton
GK: Banks

Distinguishing between Peters and Ball as to who was more advanced vs removed is difficult as they played similar roles. I personally thought Peters spent slightly more time up the pitch trying to trigger attacks while Ball spent slightly more time in the midfield. Same issue with Wilson vs Cohen, both spent a similarly aggressive vs conservative.

Ball obviously played a different position and role for most of his club career and later in his England career. RWA might still be the best fit for him in the holy trinity midfield with Everton.

Matthews vs Finney is a tough one as to who was removed vs advanced. Like you said Finney probably tracked back more than Matthews, but Finney was also in the box far more often. If you look at the goalscoring numbers Finney was putting up with England in the late 40s, when both players were playing together and were closest to their peaks it is hard for me to deny that Finney was the more advanced player. From 1946 to 1948 Finney scored 12 times in 14 games for England.

 

Good call on Cullis, I assumed Wolves played a WM. How did England play when he was nominally a Center Half/Back in a WM, where they still using a pyramid sometimes this late in the 30s? I assumed that when Copping was nominally Center Half/Back they played a WM earlier in the decade.

 

I had thought it was the other way around, that Loustau was many times the most advanced player on the pitch and that Munoz was the most conservative player of the front 5. Loustau certainly scored more for club and country when the y played together, although that does not obviously tell the whole story.

 

In an attempt to clarify how the system would work I will use some more examples from famous teams, feel free to comment if you think anything is off.

Lets look at two all time great teams in the 1974 world cup. I will be looking at how they played in the whole tournament more than zeroing in on just the final.



Netherlands

The toughest part here is trying to give Cruyff a role because he basically does everything. I would say he is still the Central Forward, because despite his wandering he still makes more runs in behind and takes up more central advancement positions that any player on the pitch. If he was not the Central Forward who would be? Rep?

CF: Cruyff
SF: Rep
AWA: Rensenbrink
RWA: Neeskens
PM: Van Hanegem
CM: Jansen
ASD: Krol
CSD: Suurbier
CCD: Haan
DCD: Rijsbergen
GK: Jongbloed

@PuckVanHeel

Germany

The big question in my mind that is crucial to putting the German players in roles is the position of Honess. Is he a forward playing off Muller or a midfielder? I often see him described as a speedy forward, but I have read descriptions of this game that he was part of the midfield with Bonhof and Overath that controlled the latter portion of the game.

If Honess is playing closest to Muller as a forward I would put the players in these roles (4-4-2).

CF: Muller
SF: Honess
AWA: Holzenbein
RWA: Grabowski
PM: Overath
CM: Bonhof
ASD: Breitner
CSD: Vogts
CCD: Beckenbauer
DCD: Schwarzenbeck
GK: Maier

If Honess is playing in the midfield I would place them this way with Holzenbein playing closest to Muller (4-3-3).

CF: Muller
SF: Holzenbein
AWA: Grabowski
RWA: Honess
PM: Overath
CM: Bonhof
ASD: Breitner
CSD: Vogts
CCD: Beckenbauer
DCD: Schwarzenbeck
GK: Maier

Any ideas on which one seems more accurate?