Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the games are an afterthought, and we are out to confirm what we want to be true. as opposed to the games are the point and we take away what we see.

    there is a difference in "onus" here. done this way the incumbent is presumed competent until disproven over months, while the outsider is presumed lesser, and their performance is viewed with a jaded eye. if the games were the point and the pivot then you would place the players on more even footing and there would be more churn in the roster based on who played better than whom.
     
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  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    huh???? roldan subbed in as RF the last two games of GC, Jamaica and Mexico, instead of Boyd, who got sat after Curacao.

    that's part of the reason GB subbed on Lovitz, is he told himself, i have subbed in a CF and Roldan, that's 2 forwards, if that's not working, i need to sub another position. whether that makes any sense is another question. i am telling you what happened and my guess at his screwball thought processes.

    the argument being made is he could serve as a regista. production at forward is quite relevant there. if i stick you up top and you can't create anything there, right in the action, how am i assuming you can create from 40 yards back??????

    regarding, "if adams was played up high would he produce," short memory i guess:

    https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/video/1196374595798

    heck yes he would produce. my point is the malarkey people sell where players who can't score or set up people in more advanced roles can even be suggested as the deep lying playmaker. how is that going to happen if you couldn't spark offense PLAYING UP TOP?????
     
  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2428 juvechelsea, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    i don't understand the affection for roldan. in MLS he does some perimeter shooting, but that disappears for the US, who could ironically probably use some other option than longballs or crosses. he is not involved in setting up plays, and on defense he hustles but is not particularly effective.

    for me he would be down below even morales because as crude as his game was, he had a higher level of intensity and when he got involved on defense, 80%+ of the time, the play ends with a foul or turnover. i realize this is not pretty but in international soccer if you can stay out of card trouble there is plenty of use for people who definitively end opposition breaks.

    and then neither of them are a speck on adams, mckennie, or even holmes, who displayed some toughness and skill in his cameo.

    and then if DM is settled i am done with a bunch of pretend AMs who are really pushed forward 6s. put out there some people who can attack and produce. for all the talk of deep lying playmaking the reason the mids look like hammered horse hooey is they aren't that good at defense and then they weren't even picked for ball skill and production. we can call them "8" but i think that's lowering expectations by saying they are out there for two way hustle and don't expect skill. and then what if we look skill deficient in their sector??? hmmm.

    and fwiw GB calls them twin 10s. if that's reality he sure doesn't staff the positions like he means them to set forwards up and remove us from the pattern of basically the forwards creating for each other. he staffs them like a low rent imitation of Klinsmann c. 2014-2016. he might think he's fashioned after Jones Beckerman Bradley but it's not. it's like Klinsmann after he lost that midfield but tried to keep the formation. it's like the janet jackson scene from Friday.
     
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  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2429 juvechelsea, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    Tata is 11-1 with a GC championship and his only loss to Argentina, playing basically every game as a road game.

    I feel like a Columbus fan, a lot of big talk, a gimmicky concept, but few tangible results and a reduction of expectations to secondary status. I then feel like there is an echo of this slippage in all the "hybridity" excuses where it's ok to have a player flawed at his position because he offers some other attribute instead. I feel like that's the sort of settling/excuses second rate teams make. I can't afford that 10 I want so I will move the wing over and call him one.

    I mean, constant running issues under 4 coaches of just getting 11 people out there competent at their jobs. They get years to sort this out, and yet.....how many positions would you say either in the air or should be still?

    We need a high level, serious, gravitas coach who isn't selling BS and doesn't put up with it either. I have studied your personnel. I think this formation would work with them. And then he runs out more of an approximation of a best XI.
     
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  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Roldan got sub minutes up there. I'm not going to hold a few minutes against him.

    And if you can't understand that there are different skillsets needed between a forward and a 6, I realy don't know what to tell you. It's no point having a debate with someone who think those are the same.
     
  6. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Shocking stats. I didn't see Canouse say it but he's right. He is probably the closest thing we have to Danny Williams in the domestic league at present. Morales could fill this role too. I know Canouse has been injured and is just getting back but I'd love to see someone like him at the 6 when we play with two attacking outside backs. It leaves us overexposed to have Bradley/Trapp at the 6 which is why Gregg tried to compensate with Ream that in turn let other coaches know they could stick a creative winger on his side and he could rest up and spend all his energy on offense since Ream was apparently banned from crossing the half-line. It would also allow McKennie the freedom an 8 typically enjoys rather than having to do 60 yard sprints to make sure he can cover. You've said it, others have said it, but SO MANY of our problems stem from having an incompetent defender at the 6 position.
     
  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2432 juvechelsea, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    you're the one all over the place. you say, essentially, there are different skillsets for a 6. but meanwhile you are selling the regista concept. and in reality i think you're selling a passing 6 who sucks at his primary job. do you not see your internal contradiction here? you basically admit my theory they have a job which requires certain talents, then try and give me something else, and trade off for some other skillset.

    and i am not dense where i confuse 6s and forwards. but particularly if the justification for the 6 is his supposed ball skills, if he has recently been played in a more advanced position, that should either tend to confirm or disprove that they have any knack for creating goals. now, their role would be different there, but one deployed in the attack should have an easier job than a 6 creating, not harder.

    you just usually wouldn't have that data point because usually a sane soccer team leaves their leg breaker back where he belongs. but if they hand me the data point, and it's they have never scored or assisted for the NT in 15 games even when played as a forward or AM routinely, OK, yeah, i call BS on them being some deep lying creator. they can't even create when handed the ball deep in the opponent's third without the DM responsibilities. that is QUITE PERTINENT.

    for example, the adams goal. he plays as a 6. we may be expecting some deep creation. but you see from that paraguay PK he has some skills and could probably play even further forward if we wanted. so i am not kidding myself when i play him at 6 but build some creation into the role. his multiple talents are manifest and a goal and win resulted from the spot kick he won.

    i even believe MB used to have manifest production as a 6, and he used to play higher up. but that well done dried up statistically at this point. just like roldan never creates anything. i am for reality over pretend. part of that reality is not pretending like someone who couldn't help us get a goal deployed as a 9 is our savior at 6 as some Pirlo theory. i am sure if pirlo was played upfield he would have been productive just the same. which is my point in reverse on roldan. i am sure given 90 minutes a NT game all year he might get one assist playing forward. ok don't pee on me and tell me it's raining that he will produce assists from 6.

    i am the one being hyper consistent. i am saying, give me a leg breaker at 6. and i am saying if you want to hand me a hybrid instead, he better be actually good at that job to offset what i lose. i am then saying if the hybrid couldn't create goals playing forward or AM i call bs they do it as a hybrid 6.
     
  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    that's not true. How many days between when JoGo became a regular starter and the last chance to cap tie him, which was Cuova? Not to mention the insanity of using do or die WCQ matches to cap tie a player.
    Of the 14, I believe 9 were either the Gold Cup (i.e., something we're trying to win, not a laboratory) or Camp Cupcake (i.e., Euros not released.)
     
  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think there were 10 matches outside of CC. If we’re trying to win vs a good team, we shouldnt have Trapp/Bradley play. We could have experimented even early in GC.
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's impossible, unless the Gold Cup is 4 matches. Which it isn't.

    Or the poster I quoted is wrong about Berhalter being in charge for 14 matches.
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    My bad. 14 matches of which 2 were CC
     
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  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, MY bad. I "saw" GC instead of CC, so I thought you were talking about the Gold Cup, not Camp Cupcake!
     
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  13. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Do you think an attacking winger and a regista have the same skillsets?

    I'm not even defending Roldan. He's a defensive-minded box to box who's an asset in MLS due to his physicality and motor, especially when paired with people like Nico Lodeiro. Honestly, the guy who plays closest to him is probably Morales, who is also more of a defensive 8 than a pure 6, but Morales is much more skilled and looks like a better player. Roldan hasn't been terrible every time in his USMNT stints, but he's at the level of a guy who hopefully won't be called in in the future.

    I'm not even selling the regista concept. I just can see why Berhalter wants one and why he thinks Michael Bradley fits that when others don't. I don't even agree with him, but I find myself defending him merely because I can see the logic.

    But you write this long, rambling essays devoid of internal logic where you make giant, firm pronouncements that are often wrong. And you constantly try to hide personal preferences behind principle.

    There's no good logic behind a) calling Roldan a forward just because he played some minutes as a backup "winger" whose role was actually being pulled back into the midfield or b) acting like failure to score or assist in that short period of time means he's a bad player at a completely different position and role in the team.

    Neither of those things are remotely true. Roldan isn't talented enough, but two brief stints at RW don't dictate how he'd play at the 6.
     
  14. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And while we all prattle on about the failing system and plan of Berhalter, the guy who SHOULD have gotten the job if an American were to be hired is absolutely lighting it up to begin his non-MLS coaching career in Europe.
     
  15. dams

    dams Member+

    United States
    Dec 22, 2018
    Yeah maybe we can get him for next cycle...If he doesn’t have some lame job like managing in the Prem or Bundi by then
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Few people realize that it is absolutely possible, if not probably, for both sides of a discussion to be wrong......
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2442 juvechelsea, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    This is really not complicated, dude. You either have the knack or not. I had goals and assists in NCAA playing back. Freshman year I had 4 assists from the backline. So when I campaigned to the coach for some attacking time, I wasn't talking out of my butt, and I got some wing play and a couple sophomore year assists when he slid me up as a mid. The two interrelate. Conversely, if I didn't do crap as an attacker, it would be more questionable to expect assists from further back. I get the different positions are different competencies. But if you can't create further up, you aren't doing it 40 yards back. You're selling him not as a 10 but as a 6.

    Christian Roldan played 49' at RF as a sub instead of Boyd in the semis and final of a big regional tournament. I thought he also played some forward in the Jamaica friendly. He did nothing. If you are going to tell me he can play 6 and create, the fact he couldn't produce standing up in front of the net on the top line is relevant, whether you like it or not. He couldn't find Josh Sargent or Jozy if they were standing in front of him 20 yards away. And you want him to set them up as a 6????

    I readily acknowledge one task is different -- and easier -- than the other. The 10 yard midfield left footer cross I hit sophomore year for a diving header was far easier than the 50+ yard bomb i hit over the top from back as a freshman for an assist. My point is if you can't do the far easier task of the former don't try and sell me he will do the latter. If you can't do easy I am not waiting on hard. There is no logical flaw in that.

    Mike Bradley used to be very productive. I used to defend him last cycle. But this cycle Transfermarkt credits him with one assist, against Guyana, meh. Net that out against all the goals allowed and resulting losses while we play pretend.

    Roldan falls out for doing jack squat. Bradley falls out for occasionally doing something but netting out negative. We should be looking for people who don't cost us goals, and then I expect Adams, McKennie, and Holmes, to deliver positive plays. Not out of hope. I have seen them produce.

    I appreciate that Roldan hustles and I could see tactical situations where that might be useful, though bluntly I think Morales would be even more useful if the goal was just to break things up and harass. But you're not even arguing that, you're saying he should be in the mix at 6, and based on creative ability. OK, throw your stats on the table. No, they don't suggest that works.

    Conversely, I am sure one reason coaches think of MB as creative is he used to routinely produce goals and assists, albeit in a more advanced position. He does occasionally hit balls worthy of the idea. The problem is, the productivity for the USMNT is tapped out and the negatives outweigh the positives. But at least that is dwelling in the reality of you either have offensive talent or not, just bogged down in nostalgia. Roldan doesn't even have nostalgia to trade on. Not as a forward, an AM, or a DM.
     
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  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2443 juvechelsea, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    we have played 14 games under GB. 6 GC + 8 friendlies.

    https://www.transfermarkt.us/wil-trapp/nationalmannschaft/spieler/199559

    WT played every GB game until the 2nd GC match. At GC he started Panama, subbed Guyana, and sat the rest of the tournament. But he was back starting for Mexico (then out Uruguay).

    Trapp's use actually goes up for normal friendlies.

    The argument that GB realizes he doesn't work doesn't fly. He got bit part minutes the first friendly and his time went up from there. He was benched for GC and I got hopeful but then in an equally important Mexico friendly he's back out there starting playing 77'. That doesn't sound like a coach who learned his lesson, at least not well enough or with finality.

    It's an apt point. I don't like the guy, and one might think based on how GC went, he learned his lesson. We could debate how long it took, but I digress. But the response to Trapp fading to the bench in GC is not to call different people or turn over rocks, but go right back to the well when he wanted a DM for these friendlies.

    He can barely handle that 1 or 2 guys might be better than Trapp -- how he handled GC -- much less the reality it's probably several.

    Or, to be more pointed here, he wouldn't be a 26 year old who couldn't break into the weak team we had last cycle. He gets treated and talked about like one of these recent U20s. He played U20 in 2013. His first cap was in 2015. The only other time he saw the field that cycle was a CC game with Canada. That should hint at something. But we are a pecking order obsessed team so he's Next Man Up and we assume any other option must be worse.

    I will gladly admit Sarachan used him a lot, but he didn't call him every time, and GB should have the benefit of all that tape and the impression it left, plus his own games, and yet he perseverates.

    The comparison I would make is to the nightmare we had at back last cycle. We knew we had problems for a long time but basically rotated among a usual suspects list. If you have a problem but don't try anyone new when you have a chance, you get only more locked into stupidity as the games start counting, with the frightening decision of either experimentation in a game that counts, or pulling the bucket from a poisoned well. And then you're playing Omar and Villafana in Couva.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2444 juvechelsea, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    fwiw i think the basic skill of driving a ball about 30-40 yards on a line dead on a target is useful for box-perimeter shooting, distance switching/passing, crossing, longer free kicks, from a variety of positions, and you either have it or not. you're trying to tell me someone who can't put the ball to sargent's head or foot from the corner flag to the near post is going to do it just fine backed up another 20. i don't buy it.

    so much of this stuff to me feels like trolling or perseveration meets talking points. if we didn't know who the coach liked/plays, and were like, who will play "6," who gets the call? if we were like, i want a 6 who can hit this particular type of pass, who gets the call? not these guys.

    this is true of so many positions right now. you pick the man, almost out of a hat, and then talk back to some sort of justification. as opposed to, make the rational decision a smart coach would make from our pool, if he wanted a player for that position.

    cause the thing is so many of these picks wouldn't be on the list for anyone else. they are not a rational response to the pool meets the formation. they are so far off they might see camp cupcake and that's it, tops.
     
  20. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I find this surreal.

    You said that it was clear that Roldan couldn't play the 6 because he didn't deliver assists or goals as a forward.

    He played 49 minutes out on the "wing" in the Gold Cup. No player that I know of averages an assist or goal every half game in international play to begin with.

    And yes, soccer skills aren't universally different -- this isn't a linebacker versus a quarterback versus a kicker.

    But the winger position (or any forward position) and any kind of six role require different skill sets. It's not unusual for a successful 6 to not have the one on one skills or finishing skills or offensive in the box movement that can make a forward successful. And it's not unusual for a successful forward to have the tackling skills or long passes skills that make a 6 successful.

    It's a ridiculous set of "logic" that you've now spent a ton of words defending.

    Roldan isn't good enough to be our 6. I don't need to pretend that his goals+assists are relevant to that. He doesn't have the skillset to be a destroyer or a regista-style at this level.

    But judging a player on 49 minutes played out of position and then solely on goals and assists is weird. Goals and assists are blunt tools. 49 minutes is nothing. And an attacking winger or CF is not a 6.
     
  21. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this an attempt to suggest that GB has not had time to evaluate and experiment with other DMs?

    6 friendlies before GC2019 including 2 at CC where he sent Acosta (starting DM during WCQ under Arena) home and did not even give Canouse a look. 4 friendlies after CC where he never called Morales, Williams, or Bedoya.

    We end up with WFT! Are you kidding?
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First off, let me just say that we got onto this tangent because I pushed back at a poster criticizing the lack of experimentation. I thought the “14 matches” was misleading and spelled out why. And now onward...

    1. Judging by the history of posters, I’m assuming this was Euro/Morales advocacy.
    2. I’m a DC fan. I’m happy we have Canouse, a very nice player at MLS level. But the dude is nowhere near technical enough to be the #6 in GGG’s system. Do I have to point out Bedoya is too old to experiment with? Was that a serious proposal? Danny Williams is similar to Canouse...in other systems, sure, he could be the 6. He’s not technical enough for GGG’s system either.

    I don’t agree with the style of play GGG is going for. I don’t think it’s the best way to play the sport in general, and it’s even worse as a fit for our player pool.

    But, again, that’s a separate issue from who should play the #6 if we’re going to play this way.

    This is N&A, not general...but it feels like people keep confusing those two SEPARATE issues.

    In short, my position is this

    1. The tactics are dumb.
    2. If this is the way we’re going to play, Trapp and Bradley are pretty good choices. I’d like to see what Adams could do in the role, but he keeps getting hurt.
     
  23. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    The problem is that they've shown NOT to be "pretty good" choices. They've shown to be generally bad choices. I would rather experiment with other players at the 6. I'd rather give Acosta a shot at the spot than see Trapp or Bradley treadmill for another year.
     
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  24. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    The complete removal of any expectations is now complete. Nope, no analyzing a poor system. No critiquing the system that has made us 2nd (3rd/4th/5th) best in CONCACAF.

    No. The system is here. We must accept it, and talk about nothing except the system. MB/Trapp are good for the system, the system that has dismantled any hope that we will be the best team in the hex, despite having the highest end top talent we've ever had in our soccer history.

    Unfortunately, we have no better players that can hit a long diagonal and play zero defense.
     
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  25. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    The absurdity is that we are so obsessed with playing one and only one way, we seem to be forgetting that good teams have the ability to vary their play and the US has lacked this ability for a long time. Rather than diving headlong into teaching players one specific way to play, we really need to be learning how to play multiple ways as the game and situation demands. And then, the biggest global trend of the last few years has been playing lots more high pressure and a greater focus on fitness and running the other team into the ground, which should play right into the strengths of typical US squads. But no, we run away from expanding our ability to play in multiple ways and ignore current systems we may actually be able to be play well to focus on a singular, unchanging system our players can't play.
     
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