Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    Exactly. Maybe with Morales and Green on the Gold Cup roster, they come in and Mexico doesn't run through the midfield.
     
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  2. Cyclops1776

    Cyclops1776 Member

    AC Milan
    United States
    Apr 6, 2017
    How does that makes an argument that he's not a lock starter when healthy? Under that logic we should never call Brooks in bc flights are bad for him?
     
  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    if you want to rebuild our performance we need a defense and dest was giving up U20 goals and is not ready yet. i am however willing to toss him a single cap to tie him down.
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i'd leave him bench at best under the "logic" he defends space better than people. after a GC where we barely allowed goals why on earth revert to brooks and yedlin.
     
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  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    re "morales vs bradley" you are playing into GB's hands. i will make it much easier.

    trapp vs
    mihailovic vs
    roldan vs

    a pile of people win those contests and you upgrade the team without making it a question of his starter

    then i agree that practically many of our mids are better than Bradley at present

    but start with the easy approach. to make the team and get their audition they don't have to send the starter home now. they just have to be the best 23 and we have some trash in that 23.

    kind of like all a defender needs to be right now is better than ream or lovitz or omar.
     
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  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i second this but feel like in addition we have swapped over from JK's approach of preemptively capping kids -- get them out early and tie them and see what they have -- to an Arena/Berhalter approach where the onus is placed on the rookie to prove in club play they have earned it. which additionally risks they get cherry picked by another NT willing to take a prospect risk.

    i also think we systematically overrate our older players and then underrate the potential new contributors. Bradley at this point is really 50%Bradley but we treat him like closer to 100%. and then we don't seem interested if Weah or Sargent types would ignite with the first team, and assume they won't until at an older age they finally get their careers squared.

    it's odd, Landon and Pulisic didn't have to make a first team every week to get their calls. Morris got plucked from college. and I'm not just saying do this for anyone, it's about a half dozen U20s, miles robinson, and some foreign players we've not tried.

    the most telling aspect to me would be if we respond to second place GC with more of the same.
     
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  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #2082 juvechelsea, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    not sure you're actually watching the games but what was generally NOT working was trying to pass the ball all the way up the field like this is Holland.

    and after losing a final down a single goal where we subbed in Roldan as a forward and then Lovitz, I laugh at the intellectual rubbish that is claiming we don't need any help.

    similar intellectual rubbish is I point out someone who excelled vs France and you wave your hand towards Trapp because he was on the field same day. whether a and b should be on the team are separate issues and there is not guilt by association. surely you grasp the logic flaw there. and trapp wasn't on the field in 2014 when Green scored on Belgium in a world cup knockout.

    there are so many positions this team could use help at. the bench has a fair amount of trash. there are a handful of players earning their spots at the moment. short list we pretty much all agree on save some wackos like brooks. everything else should be up for grabs and if holmes or richards or pomykal or soto or weah or sargent or mendez....etc. comes in and out plays you, that should be back to the pool you go. this should be done on actual performance giving people a chance, not done in your head (or GB's) where you just assume ahead of time the younger option can't possibly be better than some marginal NT guy who has barely ever done anything positive in a game. that is so effing low a bar it's not funny and i giggle at people thinking we have to be pretty close to optimal.

    to be clear, i have a much longer list than green. i think you just like talking about green because he is a polarizing figure:

    green
    payne
    laursen
    pierie
    siebatcheau
    m. robinson
    sargent
    weah
    soto
    pomykal
    mendez
    holmes
    richards
    lletget
    gall
    lichaj

    to be clear, i am not appointing any of these players fixtures any more than the current lot are. the point is give them their 2 game spurt, see what they do, and sort them accordingly. and do the same to the current players. my sense is fairly judged a chunk of these players would helpfully sort ahead of current options, and the roster would improve.

    this is the only way the results improve. this mediocre roster right now is not going to magically gel together better than what it is. it had a month to gel and the results are what they are.

    i do not understand people defending the margins of the current roster, which bluntly are the sort of names and qualities you get from camp cupcake. people whose best year was 2 or 3 goals in a season as AMs. or forwards. really?

    but most coaches figure out faster the few people from that situation worth keeping and send the rest back to the pool. it's funny to hire an "insider" who seems to have to learn everything NT coaching lesson over from scratch. "you mean they don't release everyone i want?" "you mean not everyone i track for the olympic team will be released?" "you mean not everyone that looks decent in camp cupcake can actually play? you mean most can't?"

    i also sense a basic tension between the team GB wants and what actually works. i am not sure that was his first team defense for GC but that worked better. i think that was his first team forwards and it didn't work.

    with our offensive pool we should be stomping people. the only question should be can we get together a 6 (Adams) and a backline that does its half of the job.
     
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  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    LB and DM are instructive. everyone says they're not working. then next call sheet we bring in one of the same 3-4 people. even if we start to get someone can't handle it, if a new option gets hurt, back to the usual suspects. little wonder LB and now DM never get solved. we don't try that hard to fix them. we assume the superior quality of the incumbent. we talk down sight unseen everyone else in the abstract. then the incumbent doesn't actually play well -- one fallacy burst -- but we nonetheless hold to the other half -- that, well, that guy over there couldn't possibly be better. "but he's never/barely been capped to know." "i just know." sure you do.

    usually you have to win trophies for the cabinet to be that kind of arrogant and self absorbed/assured.
     
  9. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Green has looked better this season. Last season he didn't look good at all. Not sure you are really making your case at all. Why don't you pick a standout like Wooten? How about Nagbe?
     
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  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    No, I don't think a 40 man roster for a Gold Cup three years before a World Cup is the forty best players at that time, or even necessarily the 40 players you think will help you most three years.

    Considerations that would change that include style of play and fit, expected player development over the next few years, locker room and leadership presence, and the amount of time needed to be devoted to the player during the camp relative to overall objectives.

    Berhalter could believe that:
    * Green isn't very good
    * Green's style of play doesn't fit the team at all (it doesn't)
    * Mihailovic has more potential than Green in terms of team contribution in three years and he wants to keep him involved
    * That since the camp was focusing on integrating players like Pulisic, McKennie, Adams, Jozy, etc., the time spent getting Julian Green up to speed would not be valuable whereas Mihailovic could provide strong reference given Pulisic, Lleget, and Holmes' lack of exposure to the position in Berhalter's system
    * He said, it's the fourth string CAM, who gives a sh*t.
    * With the relatively small chance of meaningful minutes being played, it was not worth bringing Green -- even for Green -- over from Germany

    The whole idea is to select the best team, and presumably, the best team that balances the Gold Cup and 2022.

    Not the 40 best players.
     
  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Berhalter has been very clear that some players will be talented to call in without excelling at their first team.

    I'd expect Sargent and Weah in September, and both will apply.

    Does that apply to everyone? Probably not, but he's been clear not to draw a line.
     
  12. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I have never had a problem with anyone criticizing the strategy choice to try and place the style of play Berhalter and Stewart want to play.

    But in that style of play, Green is not a good fit. If your issue is with that, I think that's valid. I'd still rather try it, but I see your point.

    But that's a bigger question than Green.

    Perhaps someone is claiming we don't need help. I am not -- this team does not have enough talent.

    What I question is the scattershot approach of "call anyone and everyone in" when a basic understanding of the sport and scouting would tell us that most of them are not upgrades on the players we feel are unsufficient.

    In regards to Roldan and Lovitz ... I believe Boyd was hurt, hence Roldan. And as for Lovitz, no doubt. But I haven't disagreed with anyone wanting to bring in Dest or Robinson or try out Long at Ream's position or whatever.

    We need upgrades. Many of the suggestions are not upgrades.

    It's not intellectual rubbish.

    What is intellectual rubbish is attempting to use a single sub appearance sample size of Julian Green's long career instead of the full career.

    It's pointing to a single long goal on a stat sheet instead of a full scouting report.

    This is part of my larger point: so many of the arguments on here are a joke. My point in bringing up Trapp isn't to say Trapp is as valid, it's to say you don't evaluate a player on a single performance when they have a whole career to do so.

    It's terrible analysis and leads to terrible conclusions.

    Julian Green plays in an MLS-level league on a generally bad team. A year or so ago, one of the German mags picked him as the worst player in the league, which is hyperbole but not an endorsement.

    He has a great long shot, in terms of our player pool, and there's value in that. Particularly because long shots can be effective against teams where you are getting nothing in offense.

    And he can control a ball pretty well. But he's not a good distributor, and to play him at the creative crux of the offense seems pretty insane.

    If you call Green in and him minutes, you will get a goal like every 4-5 games, but he'll bog down the offense for the rest. I have no idea why anyone believes that he's a better option than playing Pulisic, Lleget or Holmes at that position.

    And the argument that he hit a long shot against a mildly interested French side does not offset the fact that we've seen a whole lot more of Julian Green.

    And since that happened a while ago and he's received no offers to move up in the club world...

    You've made some ridiculous assumptions here, which is that because I think Julian Green sucks, I don't think any substitutions should be made.

    I think we should bring in players that the staff (or each us, pretending we are) evaluates as possibly an upgrade.

    But you can only bring in so many players and get a fair evalution. There's limited roster spots. You can only integrate so many people at once, and because someone's play will be affecting by another's, dumping a group of 11 guys who haven't played together or for Berhalter is going to lead to all of them looking bad.

    People I've said should get called in: Pomykal, Sargent, Weah, Sabbi/Nova, Miles Robinson, Dest, Antonee Robinson. Morales should absolutely be called in, though he's on the old side for me. I think I was the happiest person to see Boyd.

    I'd actually consider bringing in Ledezma, Llanez or Mendez as well, just to introduce them to the group.

    [quoteto be clear, i have a much longer list than green. i think you just like talking about green because he is a polarizing figure:[/quote]

    You think this is a gotcha, but that's because you are missing the point.

    I called out Green over Mihailovic EXACTLY because it's such a dumb argument. I don't know whether it was you or someone else used language like GB is an idiot if he doesn't call in Green or that this was travesty; I don't remember and I'm not going back to look.

    Mihailovic only made the roster because of two injuries. Green isn't any good. But there's a group of you that act like every decision is an INSANE decision by Berhalter.

    And it speaks to the fact that many of you don't speak rationally about these decisions anymore. Your side is picked; your mind is made up.

    A rational person says things like "I want Holmes to be Pulisic's backup" or "I'd like to move Pulisic to the wing so I'd call in Lleget and Holmes to play that role" or even "I think Green is better than Lleget and Holmes so call him in."

    But it's not that. Instead many of you get your talking points that any rational human can see through (Mihailovic's inflated minutes due to Cupcake and injury, or even the framing of Green versus Mihailovic to begin with). It is just evidence that this isn't about the best team, it's about criticism.

    If someone simply said, I want Holmes to be called in as Pulisic's backup in September, you'd have no disagreement from me. That's exactly what I want.

    But that doesn't allow you to blast the GC roster, so you stick with this weird obsession with a fourth string CAM versus Julian Green.

    Your players
    green - not good enough
    payne - not good enough
    laursen - no idea who this is
    pierie - not playing for the US
    siebatcheau - not playing for the US
    m. robinson - said I've love to see him
    sargent - think he's better than Jozy
    weah - starting LW in my world
    soto - part of my next gen I'd invite one of them to each camp if there's room
    pomykal - Invite
    mendez - part of my next gen I'd invite one of them to each camp if there's room
    holmes - invite
    richards - Soon, but I have so many good CBs
    lletget - loses his spot to Holmes
    gall - I put Holmes + Pomykal ahead
    lichaj - Old, and never been impressed internationally. I'm trying Robinson, Dest and others first.

    About half of those I think are worthy of a two or longer game spurt. Some of them are too old, not there yet, or simply not good enough.

    You have to make choices. You can't call everyone in. Three completely different rosters across the fall would be a disaster.

    Talent improvement is a good way to improve a roster. But I disagree that there aren't gelling/system gains to be made, especially since Adams hasn't played, Boyd is new, Brooks hasn't been around, etc.

    I also think the opportunities to improve the roster need to be targeted. You act like we can't make judgements outside of camp, but that's absurd.

    Who's defending the margins? I'm merely defending some of the choices because they were dictated by circumstance -- the Monday Morning Quarterbacking here is hilarious.

    And I'm poitning out that replacing a 2/3 goal a season AM with a 4/5 goal a season AM from the 2. Bundesliga ain't actually an upgrade.

    And it's silly to compare to Djorde because we know Berhalter prefers Holmes and Lleget. And then we have Pomykal. Hell, I'd bring in Ledezma before Green.

    Why Green? Why "give everyone a chance"? Just complain that we need to bring in Paxton or Holmes.

    OK? I don't even know how this lines up in your argument.

    I think there's a basic tension between playing possession / positional ball and our talent level. But I've mentioned that before.

    Julian Green and Devesio Payne don't help that right now.

    Honestly, the team largely looked good until the Mexico game. Panama didn't, but that was a complete B team and we still won. Curacao was bumpy, but the other three games by the starters were strong and our results were better and by bigger numbers than most Gold Cup performances, including Mexico.

    I didn't love our performance against Mexico, but bluntly, they are more talented than us. And they are more talented than us even if you called in your ideal team.

    You say our offensive pool is strong -- but we have:

    One LW in the EPL, probably rotational
    One starting winger in the Turkish League

    Our next starting attacking player is in an MLS level league, no? Weah, Sargent, Novakovich are all on the bench.

    Our youngsters need to grow up. That's the reality. There's talent there, but it's not good enough yet.

    We should give players like Sargent and Weah a shot, and I think we will see them in September.

    But we don't have a top attacking pool. Jozy is CLEARLY our best striker by performance. People need to get over the idea that different = better and they need to get over the idea that coaches, scouts and even fans can't possibly evaluate someone until they get multiple games with the national team.
     
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  13. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I didn't think I could disagree with you more.

    I think we should call in Dest because he has the skill and potential to be a starter on our 2022 World Cup team.

    I think it's pretty unethical to call in a guy you don't rate just to lock him down.
     
  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Exactly?

    Morales, perhaps. Green? Are we pulling Pulisc or McKennie off the roster? Where are you playing Green where a notably attack minded player is increasing our defense?

    I agree -- playing twelve or thirteen men would be ideal. But I'm not pulling Pulisic, McKennie or even Paul Arriola to get Julian Green on the pitch.
     
  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    This is such a disingenuous post trying to argue that in order to bring in Green (whom I don’t think is a major league talent), we’d have to sit Pulisic, McKennie or even Arriola.

    Whom did we sub in when behind vs. Mexico? Hmmmm, wouldn’t Green be a good sub there - he has top level experience as a late game sub at a high level. Nah, let’s go with Lovitz. SMH.
     
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  16. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be fair to @gogorath, you can't foresee injuries in a tournament (Boyd in this case). Sure, might have been better to have Green around as the sub. But Lovitz was a LB on the roster, not an AM. A better argument would be WTF was Berhalter thinking subbing in a LB who had shown nothing offensively theretofore when he needed a goal?
     
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  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Boyd was injured? Other than certain posters trying to excuse why he wasn’t played in the last two games, I haven’t seen any evidence of injury while many article specifically called out Berhalter for not playing him. Happy to be proved wrong but a google search came up empty. Do you have any reports?
     
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  18. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he's worst than Klinsmann. That's saying something.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I've only seen it as a rumor on here. It is really crazy that people try to pull this crap. It is also quite sad that no reporter asked Berhalter the question... "Boyd seemed to be your guy and then he disappeared. What happened?"
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    FFS!!! This was a stupid argument over a week ago and you are still defending it. You are trying to make it all about green but it is much, much bigger than that.

    I would think a new coach would want find his pool of 40 to 45 players, so that he could sidle down to 23 and then his XI. To do that, I'd think he would want to look at as many players possible. I'd think he want to see at least 60 players from a bunch of different leagues to get a feel which club qualities translate to the international level.

    Berhalter didnt do that. He took a much narrower view by sticking with MLS guys and sprinkling in obvious starters. That in itself isnt horrible, but the fact it should be clear that he has made numerous poor personnel decisions. He went with some players early and then faded... Baird and Lima. I dont think half of his GC roster belong in the top 23 and many even in the 40.

    There are limited caps to go around and he wasted half a year on a lot of players that dont belong anywhere near the national team. He basically had open tryouts for MLS players and then stuck with them and often not even the right ones.

    The whole system stuff is BS. Teaching Lovitz, Lima, Trapp, Roldan, etc THE system to then get rid of them because they were all along clearly not good enough is completely inefficient. Why should Green and a host of other players been called into the March camp? To get a handle on the whole pool. To see how a 2nd Bund player stacks up against a Danish player vs an MLS player. Green specifically is likely to be in our top 40 players today, has shown he can play at the international level and has skills that many in our pool dont.
     
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  21. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    At this stage, Berhalter is (presumably) learning along with the rest of us.

    The question which will be answered, to some degree anyway, in the September window is how much Berhalter has learned. He may not succeed but we'll see what areas of his game he is making changes in.
     
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  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Slow and steady!!! A large portion of the core group and sprinkling in a few new additions.

     
  23. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    Barely allowed goals against Guyana, worst Trinidad team ever, Panama B, Curacao, bad Jamaica team, and Mexico B team that peppered the goal with shots? Not a good performance yardstick, really. But yeah, go ahead and leave out 2 of the best 4 defensive players in the pool. #CupcakeMentality
     
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  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You are shocked that it is challenging to assess players that play across a wide spectrum of leagues?

    I am shocked that the USMNT coach was unable to eliminate so many players that gave minutes to over and over. I wish I was shocked that there so many on here that didnt see the signs in January and then March that the players had parts of their games that werent good enough that they would most likely fail the "Mexico test". I think it is disgusting that the only players on the bench for the GC final come from a league that has horrible record of their play not translating to the international level, and the guy that people are just assuming was injured.

    We arent that good past 5 to 10 players. The effort to fill out the roster has been very poor. I dont think mihailovic is even in the top 10 of American attacking mids.

    You keep saying Green sucks, but he has been better at the international level than many who have gotten a lot of caps this year. So it doesnt seem like you should be eliminating players.
     
  25. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    F-ing Lovitz or Roldan, get it? The straw men are out.
     

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