Coaches and Tournaments

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by VolklP19, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. VolklP19

    VolklP19 Member+

    Jun 23, 2010
    Illinois
    Just curious... Do any of our coaches out there review the teams that are in their brackets that they will face during tournaments?

    If so do you/they go as far as reviewing games scores (during tourneys) to determine line ups and how they will play?

    I only ask because we played this weekend and the players on the opposing team had said that coach informed them that we lost our first 2 games - which we had actually won.

    The game started off rough for them - we popped in 3 goals off the start because of a weak defense. As the game progressed the opposing coach made changes to his back line - which made penetration more ddifficult for our forwards.

    Got me wondering if he had expected an easier match because he thought he had reviewed the game results wrongfully.
     
  2. illinisoccer

    illinisoccer Member

    Aug 15, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    I usually do a little research on the teams I will play so I can prepare the parents with realistic expectations. If I know I am playing a significantly weaker opponent, I will rotate the players around and have girls that don't like goalie play in the net so I can use the ones that enjoy goalie vs the better teams. Also provides an opportunity for girls to have success in their weaker field positions so they can have confidence when they play those roles in future games. As the tournament progresses, I tend to adjust based on the standings.

    Preseason events should be used for learning systems of play, adjusting to new field size, number of players, teammates etc... Results are secondary for those tournaments. My philosophy for in-season events depends on how we are doing in the league. If my team is struggling in the league, I tend to play more to win in a tournament so the team has some positive out of the season. If we are going well in the league then I tend to experiment more in a tournament.
     
  3. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    I just want to make sure I was in a properly placed flight. Won't say results don't matter, but I primarily just want good/fair competition.

    My main objective is just keeping my players focused on the match(es). I don't check the standings (nor the scoring systems) nor tell them what we/ the other team has at stake each match. I figure they are checking the boards or their parents are and feeding them information. Usually have to start the pregame warm up with a reigning in of "I don't care what they did in their last game..."
     
  4. aDifferentPerspectiv

    Apr 22, 2011
    Tournaments. Ever wonder how/why we ask our young children, still maturing physically and cognitively, to give their 110% effort and concentration during what is sometimes 5 games in a weekend and up to 3 in a day? We don't even ask our fully-matured, mens and womens national teams (who are world-class fit) to play 2 games in a week, but we expect more from our kids? Even in domestic leagues, teams in the EPL that have mid-week European fixtures constantly run into injury issues or dips in form from overuse in the long-term. But hey, let's have our 9yr old daughters play 5 games in 2 days.

    Apologies for ranting again ;).
     
    Timbuck and equus repped this.
  5. VolklP19

    VolklP19 Member+

    Jun 23, 2010
    Illinois
    That is, a different perspective indeed :thumbsup:
     
  6. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    We’ve done a lot of Tournaments over the years and I can’t say I ever recall doing 5 games in 2 days…4-3 games is overwhelmingly typical…

    A 110% out of a 9 year old? Yeah, you might want to lower your expectations a little… ;)
     
  7. lncolnpk

    lncolnpk Member+

    Mar 5, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think it is legal to play 5 in a weekend or 3 in a day around here in Ill (pertain to u-12 and below, IIRC).
     
  8. aDifferentPerspectiv

    Apr 22, 2011
    @mwulf67 With goals being player development, why would you ask for anything less than maximum effort and concentration in training or game environments? I totally understand the up's and down's of Zone 1 players, but when you take a young player who has enough trouble concentrating/comprehending and physically executing soccer actions and add the fatigue that comes from playing so many games in a short period, you end up opening the door to an environment that actually develops bad habits and even injury risk.

    Take a look at Raymond Verheijen's soccer periodization method (google) or his World Football Academy programming and you may see a bit more of where I'm coming from. Granted, this is a fairly advanced training methodology, I understand that to the recreational or local travel team player this my not necessarily apply. But to US Soccer, it's mandated that Development Academy clubs maintain a 4:1 (or 3:1 for U12) training-to-game cycle and these trainings be periodized to manage player fatigue to ensure maximum performance while mitigating injury risks that come from overuse. In relation to tournaments, they have mandatory rest days during the Academy National Events (one day game, next day rest).

    I recently had the opportunity to take the La Liga Formation Methodology Course, and this training-to-game periodization was addressed within this course as well. One of the questions asked by a participant in the course was about tournament events here in the States and how they factored into their methodology, the staff smiled and said these tournament events where players play multiple games a day are unheard of in Spain. They may play a game a day at most, and high-level youth platforms almost always have rest days.

    Essentially what I mean is, if this methodology is right for Dutch Federation, the Spanish Federation, and US Soccer's Development Academy, why shouldn't it be right for the Zone 1 player in Ohio or wherever? Just food for thought. ;)
     
  9. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    First of all, your original rant was based entirely on the idea of a 5-game tournament…I would agree 5 games over 2 days is too much. However, as pointed out, 5-game tournaments are extremely rare. So, to use this elusive “5-game tournament” as the jump off point to rally against the entire tournament format, or even worse, the entirety of our training/development model in the US, seems a bit disingenuous and overblown…

    Second, when it comes to U-littles, I really don’t care what the training standards are for teenaged DA players. That is a whole different world. No 9 or 10 year old should be training/playing at the intensity or duration of a post-puberty DA player…and any adult who think they should probably needs to have their head examined….

    But more to the point, a couple hours a soccer a day, over the course of 2 days, regardless of the intensity level, shouldn’t be overwhelming or detrimental to the average American youth soccer player…their foreign counterparts play every day, for hours on end, frequently in unstructured play …unfortunately, for the most part, this country doesn’t have the soccer culture to support this ideal of unstructured play...and there is no magic training model or foreign system we can poorly mimic that is going to get us there any sooner…

    Ohio is not the Netherlands, nor Spain, nor Germany…the US simply does not have the culture, infrastructure, or professional opportunities these “big” soccer countries possess…sure, we can and should understand what they are doing; try and learn a few things…but when attempting to apply them to ourselves, we need to take their methods with a huge grain of salt…its apples and oranges…there is no way their methodology is going to easily fit our present circumstances…

    Maybe the tournament format, as it stands today in this country, is not the ideal development model…but the reality is there is no practical, readily alternative for the foreseeable future…
     
  10. VolklP19

    VolklP19 Member+

    Jun 23, 2010
    Illinois
    I think there is a whole lot of sarcasm in adp's initial post.

    I would add that times are changing at a handfull of clubs to follow a more European style of play, management and so on.

    You're free to disagree with that - I'm just speaking from what I know.
     
  11. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Certainly a healthy dose of hyperbole…

    The times they be a changin’…outside of style of play (which, depending on how defined, I think is widely accepted at this point), I am not sure I disagree, per say, but I guess it view it like magnet schools…yes, they exist and are doing some good and exciting things, but no, they’re not really changing how most public schools operate, nor will continue to operate for the foreseeable future…
     
  12. VolklP19

    VolklP19 Member+

    Jun 23, 2010
    Illinois
    I am not aure I have you right, but the majority of dinosaur clubs out there have in fact had to change as a result of high quality training spreading and parents becoming more knowledgable.

    That is certainly the case by me.

    In fact these changes are driving leagues like MRL and lame tourneys like Presidents Cup.

    Hell one community based club sent a team to Surf Cup for gods sake! What's the point of that other than to take $$ from parents and get them (parents) to think they are on the national map as a result.

    Change indeed - not for the better, but for sure being driven by the expansion of better clubs, smarter parents and so on.

    Again - this is all happening by me.
     
  13. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Sorry, Volk, not sure I am following you either…extreme examples doesn’t make a compelling case…first the OP complains about 5 game tournaments and now you’re complaining about (supposedly) unqualified teams traveling across country to play in a tournament they have no business competing in…yes, both occur, and I wouldn’t support either, but suspect both are relatively rare in the grand scheme of things…

    Via causal observation only, I would say most tournaments are attended by teams from within a few hours’ drive and play 3-4 games over the course of the weekend…depending on their league schedule or lack it, they make this trek 2 to 4 times a season….maybe this is far from the Euro model ideal and entirely untrendy in some circles….but don’t see how its inherently or intrinsically harmful to the development of those players…

    As a smart parent myself (or at least I like to think of myself as one), when my kid’s team participates in the Presidents Cup, I know it’s the equivalent of playing Division II in college…I am just not sure what makes that so lame? Not every club has the resources and player pool of a large suburban/metropolitan club…our B-team just won their Bronze Division at last week’s tournament, while the A-team struggled to go 1-3 in the Gold…they [B-team] enjoyed their trophy and accomplishment, as they should, but ain’t a single kid, parent or coach actually confused by who the better players are between those two squads…and if they were, really, so what…part of being a smart is not caring what less smart people think…
     
  14. VolklP19

    VolklP19 Member+

    Jun 23, 2010
    Illinois
    I am not speaking specifically in terms of tourney play as much as how the larger clubs which are adopting a European style of play and management have impacted other (smaller) and Comm clubs.

    It's fine for a club like yours to participate in Presidents Cup - you don't have the resources - I get that for suree.

    But for large clubs fielding 20+ girls teams to promote that as a National Championship to position or market the club as a better place to learn soccer - get into college etc... is BS and that is all I am saying which happens a lot around my parts.

    These comm clubs have - in some cases, been pushed to play in MRL and Presidents Cup to retain or attract local players who may consider additional travel to a larger club that has access to top leagues. They are using these resources to market the club - not necessarily build soccer players.

    The fact that a local comm club traveled to San Diego when there were was more than enough competition is a complete waste of time and money - but I bet the parents felt better about themselves and their kids.

    The could have drove 40 minutes south and been stuffed by a hand ful of teams from multiple clubs...

    My point being is that I think that what the larger clubs do, impacts the smaller ones - maybe not always in the right way, but there is an impact.

    You said:

    This is where I disagree. In fact the clubs that have not changed as a result of players moving on to larger clubs, are all but dead - some with the final nail being the USSF change in age.
     
  15. lncolnpk

    lncolnpk Member+

    Mar 5, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perfect description of what is happening in the Naperville area right now.
     
  16. aDifferentPerspectiv

    Apr 22, 2011
    @mwulf67 In regards to your response to my last post, sounds a lot like someone who's accepted the status quo and isn't interested in doing anything about the overall underachieving American youth soccer scene...

    Absolutely the sums up the Naperville scene, there could be a whole forum about Naperville lol...Got clubs that can't even produce top teams/players on the local level using alternatives (MRL, Super-Y, futsal) to try and sell their club to the community. In a business sense its smart. Manipulate the lesser soccer-educated people into trusting them to "develop" players. It's all done in the name of building membership to generate $$$. Why can't soccer-rich Naperville get a true, hometown club selected to the highest competition platforms in the country? Because the leadership in these competition platforms see thru their BS. US Soccer knows the large volume of youth national players that come from Naperville, yet still the only club that got selected for DA (boys or girls) is a club that operates in Naperville but is run from Palatine! If that isn't an indication of the real quality of these clubs, I don't know what is.

    Anyway, back to tournaments. @VolklP19 is right. Unless you're a high-level club/team there's no sense in traveling far and wide for a competitive event like Dallas Cup, Surf Cup, Jef Cup, etc.. That said, traveling for "experience" events is a great idea for those that have the resources to do it. Disney is a prime example, great soccer experience for all levels. Took a third-rate team to their Presidents Day event awhile back and it was a blast! However it was explained to the families that this was for experience of traveling together, playing at the wonderful complex they have, and although we were competing it was NOT about the wins/losses. These kids were never gonna play DA and they know that, but it was something they would remember for the rest of their lives.
     
  17. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    If that’s your takeaway, so be it. I don’t think I hang around here and post with passion I do at times because I am uninterested in improving the American youth soccer scene…can’t people disagree on the details and still have the same overall goal?

    I don’t think I am married to the status quo; nor have an agenda to maintain it…but nor I am going to blindly accept or champion foreign methodologies/systems that might work great in places like Spain or Germany, but might not fit so perfectly or practically with our culture, unique circumstances and ways of doing things.

    I am not defending the status quo, but I am also not going to causally trash it simply because that’s supposedly not how they do it country “x” or the trendy thing to do. Equally, what might work well in a dense, urban/suburban setting might work so well in a more rural, less populated area…local, low travel league games, with plenty of rest days between them are great and ideal IF you actual have the local talent pool to support them. For those that don’t, regional, multiday tournaments are a practical necessity…

    Textbook hypocrisy…what I do is fine; what everyone else does is wrong…can’t teams travel to Richmond, San Diego, or Dallas just for the fun or the experience of it all? Or does Mickey Mouse hold the monopoly on whole “experience” angle?

    I think all of these high-profile, mega tournaments are a waste of time and money for the majority of kids who attend them; very little to no development value in them; at least in relation to the costs involved…but yeah, they’re a nice experience…and it you have the time, money and desire, then by all means, knock yourself out…

    My son was offer a chance to go to the Dallas Cup a few years ago…we declined…not because we didn’t have the money; not because it wouldn’t been a great experience; I am sure it would have been…there was just no value it; him going wasn’t going to make him a better player, or increase he’s odd of starting varsity as a freshman or going off to play soccer in college….

    You accuse me with accepting the status quo, yet you’re the one feeding the beast…
     
  18. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Volk, my disconnect is that one hand you seem to be claim all large clubs (at least in your area) are adopting a European style of play and management…which is supposedly a good thing…

    But on the other hand, a few paragraphs down, you complain about large Clubs, essentially leveraging their largeness, in dishonest and deceitful ways, which I assume runs counter to the Euro model you earlier praised them for adopting….

    I agree larger clubs will always have an impact on smaller clubs…they are all competing for the same dollar…I mean, player…

    But, my magnet school analogy is not about size…

    Regardless of size, do you agree very few club are run well (magnet) as opposed to most being run poorly (public schools)? And where any of these clubs run well in the first place?
     
  19. lncolnpk

    lncolnpk Member+

    Mar 5, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would love to have a Naperville Soccer scene discussion but it would be the both of us in that thread. :D
     
  20. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Really poor analogy. Not even a remote amount of truth in that statement.
     
  21. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    If you are getting hung up on the well run vs poorly, I’d like point out the original intent/form of my analogy did not make a judgment as to which was better, magnet or regular public…just that they are run differently; that they serve different needs, and most importantly, that magnet schools are not going to replace regular public schools anytime soon…I never intend to say all public school are run poorly compared to magnet school…that would be asinine…
     
  22. halftime oranges

    Apr 21, 2015
    I don’t think I am married to the status quo; nor have an agenda to maintain it…but nor I am going to blindly accept or champion foreign methodologies/systems that might work great in places like Spain or Germany, but might not fit so perfectly or practically with our culture, unique circumstances and ways of doing things.

    I am not defending the status quo, but I am also not going to causally trash it simply because that’s supposedly not how they do it country “x” or the trendy thing to do. Equally, what might work well in a dense, urban/suburban setting might work so well in a more rural, less populated area…local, low travel league games, with plenty of rest days between them are great and ideal IF you actual have the local talent pool to support them. For those that don’t, regional, multiday tournaments are a practical necessity…

    -----------------------------------------------------
    I think this is the smartest most on point comment in this thread.
     
  23. aDifferentPerspectiv

    Apr 22, 2011
    Guys, I admit I may have originally come off a bit strong. Player development is something I believe strongly in because I want to see soccer in our country improve overall and compete with these (much smaller, less populated, much less resourceful) countries that are currently pumping out the world-class talent. For the 98% player I concede that tournaments are totally fine. You go play games, you try to win, and potentially walk away with a trophy, some medals, and an experience that the player can enjoy and remember. That said, I have the 2% player in my mind. I agree with US Soccer when they say that the tournament environment is not conducive with player development. The idea of creating club environments with a higher ratio of training-to-game, and at the same time demanding higher quality training, is going to produce more quality players. You cannot deny the logic. Using training/game periodization as an example is a science that has been proven and used in sports like distance running, cycling, bodybuilding, fencing, ice skating , and more for years. Do these sports have anything in common with soccer? Hardly. But for the top 2% player playing for peak performance, it is absolutely important for minimizing injury risk and therefore maximizing training time. After all, an injured player cannot train, and if you cannot train you are not improving.

    Being an active coach in a large market in US youth soccer and having teams that play in local leagues and tournaments I see quality players that, in the right environment, could potentially reach national or international levels (potentially definitely being the keyword). The problem is these families are mislead by clubs and coaches that use tournaments (among other things) as a means to justify themselves, to hold on to these players, and potentially hinder their long-term development. "Our team won this" or "Our team beat them" is being spoon-fed to these families that just don't know any better. They are taken advantage of by the guys that say, "20xx National Champions", when in reality they won the President's Cup or the premier division (2nd division) of the US Club National Cup. Therefore that one family with that one special player will be swayed by what is essentially a result-oriented culture, which is generally what tournaments feed into and US Soccer is trying to change! For example, today while at a local tournament with what is a 5th- or 6th-level team in my club, I got to talking with a dad who just got back from a tournament in Colorado. He was wearing a shirt with the name of another local organization (from my hometown, sadly) that for so long has pumped out this type of misinformation. He made a point to say, "We won the tournament, and easily beat "X" Academy team in the final." I asked him what is son's age is, and he told me he was a 2005. I asked him, does he play with an older team? He says no. Little did he know that there is no DA for 2005 (his son's age) and if there were they would not be playing in a tournament per US Soccer mandates. It's not his fault, he simply doesn't know any better. It's undoubtedly the organization that is feeding him this information. Who knows? His kid may have been a very average player that will eventually choose other sports over soccer. But what if he was one of these players that belong in a developmental environment being overseen by coaches that are overseen directly by US Soccer with a pipeline to youth national teams and beyond??

    @mwulf67 & @halftime oranges You're absolutely right. We do not have the culture of many world soccer powers, that I am fully aware. But do you think we could build this culture if we had world-class role models for our kids? If our country actually competed for World Cups? Maybe if a US club won the Club World Cup (or even qualified)? Would it help even in the slightest??

    Here's another question to fuel some thought, and this undoubtedly belongs in it's own forum discussion: Outside of the MLS youth organizations which this should not apply, if youth soccer in this country were not bottom-funded (from membership) and they were compensated for the professional players they produced, would we be in this situation where clubs had to mislead and lie to build membership and money coming in?? In-turn, do you think this would incentivize coaching education and overall club development in order to bring in the funds to provide top facilities and pay coaches salaries??

    Again, all food for thought. But I hope this stimulates some productive thought and conversation. Cheers, gents.
     
  24. halftime oranges

    Apr 21, 2015
    ADP, I don't disagree with you. I had no problem with your posts. Rant away!!!!!!

    I don't think these teams playing in these tournaments are clubs trying to some way to pull the wool over people's eyes. I think they play in my these tournaments because they want the expierience. If people talk about it because they are proud or enjoyed it, it doesn't mean they are stupid and don't know anything.
    I think people read too much into things and worry what other people are doing way more than they should.
    The European thing makes me laugh because I came here to the States a a small child and my parents are European immigrants with thick accents. When people talk about something being European we ask what kind of European? That could mean a million different things. It seems like saying something is European is a marketing ploy to make things seem fancier than they are. I am glad to be here and not in Europe at the moment. I guess it wouldn't be funny to you. A bit of an inside had to be there joke that doesn't translate well here.
    I have a neighbor whose child plays on a top team in a top club. Every night I see this kid outside kicking their ball around. Kicking it against the garage, juggling, knocking it around by themselves. Just playing with the ball because they like playing with the ball. This is just about every night and it's usually at least an hour or so. I think this is why this kid is on the top team. Go outside and play with your kids. Watch soccer on tv when it's not during the World Cup. Follow teams. If people can sit through baseball and football which stops every minute, soccer should be the most exciting game on earth.
     
    mwulf67 repped this.
  25. halftime oranges

    Apr 21, 2015
    Ok I'll bite. What is European style of management? Even saying European style of playing sounds dubious to me honestly. It can mean a million different things. Soccer is an old sport and there is nothing new under the sun. We might name fancy moves after famous players but those players hardly made them up. German soccer is the big thing these days, Dutch soccer was a big thing. It changes and evolves. Not to mention these countries scour the Earth to find the absolute best players many of them are not European at all.
     

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