Yup. These two are really neck and neck in terms of field players. I really don't have a problem if folks want to argue either way in terms of "greatest ever field player." To some degree it doesn't matter. Their "primes" didn't quite overlap, which is a shame. Its odd. When you ask folks to name games in which both Donovan and Dempsey shined, they have to really ponder it. The stats in all USMNT matches speak to the difference between the two players. Goals: Donovan 57 Dempsey 55 Assists: Donovan 58 Dempsey 17 The notion that the same player currently holds both the goals and assists mark is kinda mind-boggling. One of the two was bound to fall, and it was mostly likely to be the goals mark. The assists mark is a little crazy and won't be broken for a while. There is nobody even in the same ballpark. Donovan has 58, and the the player with the highest active assist total is Bradley at 21......................... Donovan = 58 Dempsey + Reyna + Ramos + Hugo Perez = 58 [Food for thought] So Donovan didn't just score goals, he created goals. [As far as the goals mark, Altidore is coming up fast behind both Donovan and Dempsey. He's only 27 years old, and is already in 3rd place all-time. He should be over 40 goals this summer. I fully believe that when all is said and done, Jozy Altidore will hold this goal record. Yes, there are some forwards that he has to compete with like Wood and Morris. However, as of right now there's nothing that says Altidore isn't going to keep racking up opportunities and caps. We don't think of Altidore as in this class, mostly because he hasn't yet "done it" at a major event.]
Also, don't tell me that Dempsey is clutch and Donovan wasn't. Maybe I'm older than most people on these boards, but Donovan showed up in many, many big games. Also, he tended to score his goals later in USMNT games. Folks will remember the Algeria World Cup game, of course. But there are many other examples.
1 positive in Dempsey's favor. He could score away from home and against top nations in games that mattered. Some players rack up stats in friendlies against 3rd tier nations or the B squads of the 2nd tier nations. We need goals in qualifiers or actual tournaments. Yes of course no 1 will ever beat Donovan on the assist front. But Dempsey's goals hold higher value than Donovan IMO.
Umm. No. Its because altidore in his prime the last 3 years has 12 goals in 25 usmnt games as a 24-27 year old. Dempsey has 16 in 21 games as a 32-34 old. This goal achievement at this age is something no us player has ever done before. Also, Altidore failed in the EPL as a striker ( 1 goal), Dempsey scored 17 in one season as midfield/forward and made top 5 player of the year on the worst team of the 4 other players.
Yeah I don't see Jozy outscoring Dempsey as a record scorer. Jozy is either Hot or Cold. Dempsey scores even when he plays poorly. I could see Jozy perhaps equaling Donovan's goal scoring record but that probably won't be for 4 years.
I could see Pulisic breaking it well before he hits age 30. Averaging just 5 assists per year over the next 10 would see him at 54 at age 28. Going off ability/trajectory, I'd wager he hits 50 assists before 100 caps, assuming no serious injuries.
Nobody has to agree with me on this one. Its all conjecture and crystal ball kind of stuff. You're saying Dempsey has scored that many as a 32-34 year old..............but Jozy can't score that many from 27 to 32? Whether Jozy "failed" as an EPL striker or not doesn't mean he can't catch Dempsey/Donovan in terms of USMNT goalscoring. I'm not arguing Jozy is better than those two, I'm arguing that he has a chance of catching them in terms of USMNT goal-scoring. He could score a bunch against garbage teams in the upcoming Gold Cup and be knocking on the door of 45. But the facts tell us that Jozy is 27 years old and is already at 37 goals. Already half a dozen more than Brian McBride, who didn't leave for England (Preston loan deal) until he was the age Jozy is now. Sometimes target forwards age well, and sometimes they don't. Jozy could actually just now be hitting his prime. That's right. Jozy is 3 years younger now than McBride was at the 2002 World Cup. And while we've got a couple of forwards to compete with Jozy for playing time, its still not a deep pool. The complete lack of forwards available to our recent U23 Olympic qualifying team is exhibit A of that. It was Jordan Morris and a bunch of guys that have already completely fallen off the map (Maki Tall, Alonso Hernandez, Mario Rodriguez, and company).
I love this debate and it's only going to get more interesting now that Dempsey's back in the picture, but IMO the biggest difference between the two (aside from the huge difference in assist numbers) is, unlike Dempsey, Donovan never had the benefit of playing next to a playmaker as as talented as himself (let alone Pulisic). You could argue Dempsey now has the better NT hat-trick, though. It's Dempsey's second NT hat-trick and first non-PK hat trick and its a real beauty. Worth noting that Donovan has three non-PK international hat tricks and at least 2 are equally attractive: vs. Cuba (GC), Ecuador (F), Scotland (F), but Dempsey's vs. Honduras might be the best based on both attractiveness and meaningfulness of competition. To the point at hand, though, Donovan's overall performances in his hat trick matches were better.
Well, Jozy did gain two hat-tricks (versus T&T, and B&H) before Clint got his first. The question for Jozy is will he remain the starting CF into his 30s or will he start splitting time with other strikers somewhere along the way,
Clint's WC goals and assists are being overlooked, IMO. He was a beast, out of position as a main striker, who got us through a G.O.D in 2014 under a manager with no backup plans. I feel like LD padded his stats a bit because he was always available to play against random teams of variable quality. Clint, over in Europe for 90 percent of his NT career, was not brought to nearly as many games as LD, who feasted on Camp Cupcake opponents and B-team friendlies. I mean, with 157 caps, there's bound to be a ton of easier opponents. Not to mention, CD's 3 goals in the Centenario, against Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Ecuador. I don't know if I put CD on top yet, because Landon's still the Mexecutioner, and those assist numbers are so damn high, but it's closer than just looking at the numbers.
I still give the edge to Donovan. I believe we miss out on one, maybe two of the last three World Cups without him. For a good long while he was insanely vital as the team's creative engine. Dempsey might be the "big moment" winner before too long, though. Especially if he were to produce in Russia.
If Dempsey scores multiple goals in 2018, including in a winning Knockout round match, then I think he can pull alongside Donovan. If Pulisic plays like he is currently for the next 10 years for the US, then Donovan vs. Dempsey will become a historical relic.
With Wood, Morris battling him and of course younger guys in the pipeline. I figure 2022 is his last WC and this the last qualifying where he's without a doubt a starter. After the WC I figure if we go to a 4-5-1 it'd definitely Wood and not him.
Yeah that is bizarre that he's never scored against Mexico. how many times has he played against them?
What I am referencing is the fact that Dempsey did it as a 32-34 year old. That's insane. This thread is not about the goal-record. Its about a man who took his game to a new level at the age of soccer retirement while battling a heart problem..
Dempseys most productive year was 2015.. he had 9 goals in 10 games. This was a year after Donovan retired.
are the 2 events related in some way? he played more as a forward in recent years. I recall with Arena/Bradley he was on the wing? JK gave him license to move closer to goal. And with Donovan leaving, he got first choice on FK's and PK's as well.
Given the recent emergence of soccer as an elite sport in this country, that one player holds both the goals and assists records is not really mind-boggling. Think of some of the gaudy records early baseball players held. And names like Ty Cobbs and Babe Ruth are still remembered as more than 'historical relics' even though the records have been broken. Donovan has a terrific goal and assists total. But his work in major tournaments doesn't compare to Dempsey's. Altidore will have a hard holding down a starting striker spot.
Unfortunately, Dempsey's success in 2015 occurred in the worst year for the US national team since 1998 or 2006. Interestingly, the reverse is also true - 2013 was the recent year in which Dempsey was least vital to the success of the national team, but 2013 was clearly Klinsmann's greatest year. It is a positive for Dempsey that he has been able to excel when the system around him is shit, but it has also been a negative because papering over the cracks has hindered his chances of achieving legacy-defining successes with the US.
Dempsey has spent more of his career up top than Donovan did. As Landon matured as a player he moved to the midfield. With Dempsey it was almost the opposite. Under Bradley he began to spend most of his time as a forward and since Jurgen came along he's been exclusively on top or playing as a forward. Barring any career ending incidents Clint will definitely break the goals record. And he might hit 20 career assists. But Clint is not a guy that looks to set up goals in the box, he looks to take the shot. Which a lot of times is a good thing. There was a time when the US seemed to want to walk every ball in the goal. Fear of taking a shot has never been a problem with Clint. As for penalties, yeah, Landon has a lot of them. But guess what. He was always money on a PK. Clint has never scored against Mexico. His best opportunity? 2013 WCQ in Columbus. Takes the PK and launches one that looked about like one of my tee shots the first time I went to a driving range. High and right. Clint played in the 2016 MLS Cup game. It went to penalties and Clint turned down the opportunity to step up and take one. He's taken some now but I don't think he was so confident with them early in his career. How many more goals/assists might Landon have had if Jurgen did not let his own small feelings get in the way. Three pre-world cup friendlies. Four games in the cup. Maybe more after? That, unfortunately, we'll never know. Now, if I was told I could only take one of those two to build my team around I would personally take Landon. His vision for the game, soccer IQ and ability to elevate those around him make it an easy choice for me. Much like I would take Mia Hamm over Abby Wambach to build a team around. But if you all differ, so be it. They are two special players and it is such a shame that though they are only a year apart in age we didn't get to see more of them teaming up for the US. All props to Deuce for all he has and is still accomplishing.
He is and has always been an outright striker though. Yeah kinda crazy. He will get a shot in June though. A fun fact here: Demps has a pair of goals to his name against the likes of England, Brazil, Ghana and Germany.
You mean the year we crashed out of the Gold Cup (with losses to Jamaica and Panama) and lost a must-win playoff versus Mexico, whom Dempsey still has not managed to score against? (in fairness, Dempsey played well vs. Panama to my remembrance). Pretty inauspicious year that no one would've tolerated from Donovan, regardless of how many goals he scored, though inarguably we are even more pathetic without Deuce in 2015.