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Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Soccerhunter, Nov 20, 2016.
yes, its Abi Kim.
without getting off topic, that U-20 team had a lot of very questionable selections.
As if that’s surprising to anyone. There’s no question that other countries are catching up, but people in charge of our youth system is the biggest issue IMO.
its not a surprise, but i mentioned it because the poster implied that we had depth of talent on that U-20 team and that Sanchez being subbed was for an equally talented player.
I agree with you which is why ( referring to the recruiting threads) I find it funny that when it come sot assessing the quality of players (& recruiting classes) pre College, so many seem to refer to NT caps and camps. Almost as if to say those selecting have a great track record and make great choices.
I watched JC play for Richmond at least 10x and i have yet to see her dominate a game vs anyone. Its not like her team did not have other D1 prospects on it. It did. So why is that ? And if you cant do it consistently in Club soccer, then why would I assume you can in College? Doing it on YNTs is easier vs 90 pct of the teams they face. Stats put up there are imo, meaningless.
People are always carping about our national teams (senior, youth) if we don't in every tournament, as if the rest of the world doesn't play soccer. This year's U20 team was actually pretty good, IMO: They were in a tough group and got beat on a fluky goal by the eventual winner, a very good Japan team, and tied Spain, which I read had a lot of players who train quasi-professionally and have played together a lot. Japan had the better of play against us--but not by a lot; it was a competitive game, IMO. In any case, when you don't win people complain. There is always a fair amount of subjectivity in NT camp and roster selections when there is a largish group of talented players from which to choose.
RE Canniff: I don't know if she will dominate in college--I doubt it. Who does? You can count them on one hand. She was very good for Richmond United and played up at least a year if not two years. I believe she played U16 when she was 14. Maybe she has already reached her best level; if so, she would be joining a largish group of players who were very good at 15 but not so spectacular at 18. We'll see!
we disagree. many of the YNT issues are fundamental. They will not be fixed unless heads roll. some of the carlping is simply we dont win. Clearly you have to sift thru that, but the more informed commentary is very relevant.
Currently we do not pick players who are consistent with the philosophy we SAY we are employing. that U-20 team had no game plan. it was get the ball to Smith and see if she can make something happen. We picked players like Sanchez and then played a power game that does not suit her at all, only to replace her with Kim. Makes no sense.
I follow these teams pretty closely and lets just say that Heinrichs finger prints are all over EVERY decision from selections to game plans.
I dont expect the USA to win everything, but I do expect them to have a coherent plan and I want to see signs of the playing style approaching what the coaches say they are aiming for. I dont see that. Players like Sanchez are miles better in College play than they are for YNTs. That is coaching in my opinion.
on JC - the consensus #1 overall recruit and a multi time WC player should be expected to dominate. If thats not the expectation then no way should she be regarded that highly. You cant have it both ways. I agree that top recruits can fail to live up to expectations.
Its irrelvant how many years you play up or down. The ball has no idea how old you are. Too often that is used as an input into a players ability. ie she payed up so she must be good. I think there are many better players in that class. Its always interesting to see who the USSF decides to invest in and why.
I have no idea about the prospects in the class of 2020 and don't know whether JC is overrated or not. She may be--ratings are a fool's errand, generally. I agree that some kids are good at age 15, get invited to national camps, get on national teams, and they retain their top-prospect reputation for the next three/four years even some of the plateau and competition catches up with them. But it's hard to generalize. There is a fair amount of turnover on U.S. national teams, if I'm not mistaken--and there is always subjectivity in talent evaluation.
I remember watching Katie Cousins early in her freshman year in college. I think she was the No.1 recruit (also Richmond United)--or if not was very highly ranked and received the Gatorade National Player of the Year award. I'd never seen her play--and my first reaction was: SHE'S the player that's gotten so much hype? She is short (barely 5' tall) and not exactly a dynamic athlete. I wasn't even sure she deserved to be on the field that day. But she went on to be named to the U20 NT that played in Papua New Guinea and started every game, I believe, and played decently--better than others. Over time I came to see her quality, which is essentially that she's a very good holding mid: reads the game well, positions herself well, is strong on the ball and good at breaking up attacks. She is good on free kicks but doesn't do a lot in attack and certainly can't be called a dominant player--as a prospect she was not at the level of Sophia Jones, a true no. 1-- but she's quite good in her role. And that's the way it goes with most good prospects. It's a big leap to "dominant," whatever one's ranking.
In my opinion, this latest series of posts is understandable in several contexts. This discussion erupts periodically on various pages on Big Soccer.
Some context points:
USYNT soccer is what it is. It is not perfect. IMO it has made incremental improvements, but yet has a long way to go. Obviously. Nothing new here, cultures by definition are always slow to change.
Fans (eg most posters on Big Soccer) are by definition fanatics. We expect to win all the time and get frustrated when our team loses. Especially fanatic, generally speaking, are the fans of teams that have records of winning a lot. The vitriol and disappointment expressed when losing seasons occur often amazes me. There seems to be a huge different between a "supporter" and a "fan" of a team. Egos of we fans of US youth national team soccer have VERY little patience with losing, especially since we are acculturated and accustomed to the assumption of US exceptionalism.
If one is a fan, there must be a boogyman or scapegoat for losing. Players, coaches, and administration all can easily come into the line of fire. Some posts above have hit on all three.
If we are on a winning streak, the carping tapers off. For example, Jill Ellis, who has been consistently pilloried by fans since she was appointed head coach, has enjoyed a good run recently. The complaints have dropped of the radar. But should she lose, watch out!
We fans tend to conflate development with winning games. One way of looking at it is that the national youth teams are all developmental teams and it is only the W/L record of the senior national team that ultimately counts. But because of the conflation, we fans get upset if the winning is not there down into the age groups.
Speaking of development, IMO it is in college and (currently) the NWSL and foreign pro teams that the real development takes place to allow movement on to the the senior team. Kids coming out of the YNTs very seldom jump to the senior team without a year or two of play "finishing" their skills in college and pro teams. The development taking place at the younger YNTs and club level is a broad threshing and fundamental skill building time where, for example, even on the U20 team it will become apparent that some of the players have reached their peak and only a few will end up on the senior team. Do we fans expect large numbers of U20 players to move en masse to the senior team? Ain't gonna happen.
Other countries have different systems and expectations of preparing promising players. Especially as regards the relationship to formal academic schooling. While some energy in the US has gone into this model (eg. boarding schools Shattuck-St Mary's in Minnesota and IMG Academy in Florida) by and large, kids in high school want to stay at their local high school (or can't pay to go elsewhere) and state mandated schooling is a first priority. In Europe all of the major soccer clubs have academies where soccer is the five days per week priority and academics play a secondary (but legal) role for most of the eventual high level players. If the US had 10 months of five serious practices per week (in addition to other body building and soccer specific video and class room education) we would find and develop a heck of a lot more top grade players.
Which leads to the state of our soccer clubs which for many admirably moving forward, but are a product of a system that only a few years ago was amateur to the extreme. The European model is way ahead of the US in this regard for men, and is making rapid strides with women because they have the systems already set up that have been proven to work in their cultures. The development of the best system for player development in this country will probably take another 15 - 20 years in my opinion. (The only locally embedded club of which I am aware that is fundamentally a developmental club (as opposed to bending more towards the prestige of winning matches as the real first priority) is the tiny PSV Union Club in Palo Alto which is an all girl club truly specifically dedicated to development. They have openly advertised de-emphasizing winning matches (and limited travel and the number of matches too) and have actually taken the development process seriously. In years past this club has struggled to attract a minimum number of players whose parents truly understand the benefits, but seem to slowly be getting on an even keel in recent years and are producing a stream fine technical and tactically aware players. Frankly, I was shocked to find that they had enough players to join the DA!) The reason that I think that it will take decades to move the US to where it needs to go is that American culture is not ready to support development without the immediate reward of wining most of your games. In this sense the DA, although far from the perfected solution, is on the right track in terms of pushing on the necessary cultural compromises.
Yes, I too think that coaching in the YSYNT girls teams is spotty. But unless they can attract proven coaches (probably from the colleges, which would be difficult) who are willing to only have a few weeks of practice spread out the year they get what they got. The current crop of coaches have decent resumes and as mentioned in a previous post sing the song of the kind of soccer we all would like to see played. Why they can't consistently pull it off and appear to be preaching one thing and sometimes doing another (especially at the U15 and U17 ages) is a factor of brain development, IMO. Kids that age simply can't consistently do under pressure what then have been recently coached to do, and will rely on old primary training and competitive instinct. It is my understanding that it is only in the mid to late 20s that brain development is such that calmness under pressure can be consistently achieved to remember and execute recent coaching. There is the occasional precocious player that can do this at a younger age, but what I see is that that player had the right coaching at a much younger age which has developed into her go-to style....as apposed to what most are encouraged to do when they are first exposed to organized soccer. All this said, it does not excuse what many of us think are terrible game plans. (Although I do not believe that April Hendricks is dictating game plans to interfere at that level.)
Along this line, if one considers the senior National Team age group to be players age 20 to 32 (I've intentionally made the group narrow), then for a 24 player roster we are looking at getting 1 to 3 players per age year who will end as National Team players.
We didn't just not win the tournament; we didn't get out of our group.
There have also been some tournaments our various YN teams haven't qualified for.
Some criticism is justified imo.
Yes, we didn't get out of the group. That group ended up having three top teams, two of which (Japan and Spain) who not only made it out of the group, but weathered the knock out stage to play each other in the finals. The US lost 1-0 to eventual champion Japan on a miraculous goal from 40 yards out, and tied finalist Spain 2-2. The US young women were not exactly embarrassed as they played those two highly skilled and well coached teams who ended up being the tournament's best. On what basis is anyone arguing that they should have beaten those teams?
And I agree with you that some criticism is justified. I was in the stands at the US-Japan game and was appalled at the game plan and lack of apparent scouting. Japan played an excellent organized defensive game, and the US's go-to play for the day was a long boot over the top and let Sophia Smith try to beat three or so defenders and score. It didn't work. I fault the U20 coaching staff.
And I can't understand such a game plan. Good grief! Head coach Klimkova has been highly regarded as a coach for years and has played professionally and was on the Czech senior team. She has 15 years of international coaching experience as as professional league coach in Austraiia, head coach of the Czech U-19, head coach of the New Zealand U17s and an assistant on the Senior NZ team and her home country. She has a top grade Professional UEFA license. She is not a product of American club or pro soccer. Did an assistant scout the Japan U20s and garble the information?
A few observations.
1. Spain where nowhere in the girls game 5 years ago. They have made huge strides as we stand still
2. The score is not that relevant to me. Spain broke our press with ease and should have put the game away several times. Japan did similar. Im not arguing we should beat anyone per se. Im saying that way we are approaching games tactically makes no sense. Also saying that technically, some of the players we have put on pedestals are nowhere near as good as we are being led to believe relative to others in the USA and abroad.
2. Klimkova is/was also AH partner.
You seem all over the place on JC. You want her to dominate (usually in youth club games means individual style player who is bigger and more athletic than her competition), you say her teams had college level players yet so didn't her competition and often time higher levels of talent. We are talking about Richmond not Slammers or FC Stars. Players playing up a year or two do matter because the ball may not know the age the other players and their development and sophistication do. We will see how she does. The girls she played in the last WC with will be juniors when she gets to college.
1. I expect to see long periods of dominance from ANY player who is considered to be better than the rest. Not in a short sample size, but over a period of many games over multiple seasons. That is not unreasonable. I have not seen that. I see a good player, no more.
2. This is an anonymous forum. Your definition of what I think domination is is not accurate. I dont think it has anything to do with size or individuality. Players can dominate games in many ways.
3. in many of the games I watched, the opposition did not have players of similar quality and overall were player for player worse than Richmond. that only increased my expectation of a more dominant performance. Its not like you could blame the supporting cast or say the opponent was a lot stronger. They were not.
4. We disagree on playing up. i assume that players play were they fit. Very few clubs are playing kids in a situations that they cannot handle. The level of relative development and sophistication has nothing to do with age. Some kids are more advanced than others. In HS soccer a meaningful number of freshmen make varsity all over the country. Some excel.
we will see how she does, however my comments are based on how she has done to date and in my opinion, I dont see what others seem to. Thats all.
The U-17 World Cup roster has been named! Does anyone know were these young women are heading to college?
2018 FIFA U-17 Women’s World Cup Roster by Position (College or Club; Hometown; U-17 Caps/Goals)
GOALKEEPERS (3): Angelina Anderson (Mustang Soccer Club; Danville, Calif.; 14/0), Julia Dohle (New York City FC; Scarsdale, N.Y.; 5/0), Lindsey Romig (IMG Academy; Midlothian, Va.; 9/0)
DEFENDERS (6): Michela Agresti (FC Stars; Swampscott, Mass.; 16/2), Talia DellaPeruta (Tophat; Cumming, Ga.; 24/1), Samar Guidry (FC Dallas; McKinney, Texas; 4/0), Smith Hunter (Reign Academy; Seattle, Wash.; 15/0), Makenna Morris (Bethesda SC; Germantown, Md.; 18/3), Natalia Staude (Tophat; Atlanta, Ga.; 18/0)
MIDFIELDERS (5): Hannah Bebar (Eclipse Select SC; Naperville, Ill.; 12/2), Maya Doms (Davis Legacy Soccer Club; Davis, Calif.; 26/11), Mia Fishel (San Diego Surf; San Diego, Calif.; 26/5), Sophia Jones (San Jose Earthquakes; Menlo Park, Calif.; 16/1), Astrid Wheeler (Concorde Fire; Atlanta, Ga.; 20/2)
FORWARDS (7): Trinity Byars (Solar Soccer Club; Richardson, Texas; 3/0), Jordan Canniff (Washington Spirit Academy – Maryland; California, Md.; 25/9), Isabella D’Aquila (So Cal Blues; Mission Viejo, Calif.; 14/9), Sunshine Fontes (Hawaii Rush; Wahiawa, Hawaii; 29/22), Payton Linnehan (FC Stars; Douglas, Mass.; 22/8), Samantha Meza (Solar Soccer Club; Dallas, Texas; 19/2); Trinity Rodman (So Cal Blues; Laguna Niguel, Calif.; 6/2)
Go to Top Drawer, find the last story/posting with this list of players and hit the link for each player--it will show her commitment decision.
I know 3 of them for certain are going to Penn State:
The #1 keeper is Angie Anderson great kid physically strong very solid commuted to cal She will be spot on
the number of caps is truly astounding to me. I dont think we try very hard to find players. We home in on a large number very early in each cycle and keep selecting them. I hope this changes with the new TD
Indiana verbally committed on 10/25 a 2020 midfielder name MC. She plays for OE 02 ECNL club team. She’s the real deal! Unfortunately, during her high school season at Beavercreek HS last Thursday. She said some homophobic type remarks to a all girls Catholic school opponent after her team won the match. Hope this doesn’t come back on her. SMH.
U-17s struggling to play Cameroon 11 vs 10 .
This is deplorable if true and as a coach I would not want this type of player on my team. However, unless you know this to be 100% accurate, it is best not shared on an online forum. I even question sharing it if it is supposedly true because unless you heard her say it, it's hearsay.
TDS and Penn State's twitter account both list Jordan Canniff as being in the 2019 Class. 5 star recruit and member of the US U17 WNT. Agree, that Canniff seems quite small. Have concerns about her durability.