? clasico offside

Discussion in 'Referee' started by chwmy, Apr 23, 2017.

  1. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    didn't see the game- stupid comcast not doing bein sports...

    was watching the highlights and rakitic's goal caught my eye as iffy: he cuts back across his body to put it on his left, and curls it into top left corner, while messi is cutting across the goal mouth while a PIOP.



    since he is running across the goal, by the time the ball is in the net, messi is nowhere near the line of sight of the gk to rakitic. but at the time of the shot, he was very much so. i think messi knows that he draws so much attention that it is worth him moving when his teammates are shooting. to me this is yet another example of the achilles heel that we have when trying to judge offside based on obstructing gk view.

    i have heard that in MLS and NWSL they are instructing players that offside will be called if a team parks a PIOP in the goal mouth and goal is scored from outside. naturally, messi and barcelona aren't doing anything so clumsy.

    i don't see how the ref crew can get this right, except possibly with video.
     
  2. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    I don't think the referee team got this wrong. Messi is 12 yards away from the goal at the time of the shot and 7-10 from the ball. From this distance, it's difficult for me to argue that he is interfering with line of sight. I know that is an arbitrary metric but if they're 40 yds from goal and the exact same play happens do you have the same question? How about at 4 yards? Distance from goal definitely factors into the decision and this one is just too far away for me.
     
  3. Schlager

    Schlager Member

    Dec 5, 2016
    I agree. As a keeper back in my playing days, I can tell you that the PIOP would have to be way down inside the 6 yard box standing right in front of me for some amount of time in order to affect me. Cutting across my field of view for half a second 12-18 yards out is not going to have any effect; you are solely focused on the ball.

    But then again, I never played against Messi....
     
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  4. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    They got it right. It isn't even close.
     
  5. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    [​IMG]
    Just out of curiosity, what's not close? Messi to the gk, or Messi to the line of sight between the gk and ball?
     
  6. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    Both.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If we think about the reason the Law on line of vision exists, I would think we have to conclude that the speed of the shot has a lot more to do with the call than simply the distance from which it was taken, no? The purpose is to make sure, for lack of a more legal term, the goalkeeper isn't "screened" and allows a goal that he otherwise might have been able to stop. It's about reaction time.

    If you really break down this play, I think @chwmy has a point--at least more of one than the initial responses seem to allow. It appears Navas is leaning in one direction and really doesn't react toward his right post until the ball is clear of Messi. An argument could be made that Messi being in an OSP prevented Navas from seeing the ball early enough to react. But I think that's just an argument. I don't think there's enough to conclude it's offside and I would say we should expect a no-call here every time for three reasons:

    1) First, it's an impossible a call to make for practical reasons. Even if we presume the AR has OSP correct and asks the CR to verify Messi wasn't interfering in the line of vision, what can the CR say? Unless he's out of position and directly behind the shot, he has no hope of helping (and even then, he'd mostly be guessing).

    2) Similarly, even with the replay, there's a lot of doubt. Did Messi affect Navas' vision? Or did the two Real defenders who were also between him and the ball play a larger role in obstructing his view? We're supposed to err with the attack when there's serious doubt on OSP. I would argue the same principle holds here.

    3) No one asks for this call. There's not a single appeal. Alone, on its own, that's not a reason to not make the call, of course. When a call is 100%, you make it, even if you're one of the only people in the world who knows you're right. But when you combine the lack of appeal with #1 and #2 above, it should solidify your decision if for some reason you're itchy to make the call.

    It's a subjective guess on a call that you can't practically make and one that no one asks for. It should win top prize in the "don't you dare make this call" category.
     
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  8. Schlager

    Schlager Member

    Dec 5, 2016
    These are the two big ones for me (again, being a former keeper). Even if being in an OSP did screen the vision of the shot, it was for a fraction of a fraction of second since he was so far away from goal and so close to the offside line and other defenders. As AR, you could never tell exactly how much he interfered because you don't have the angle. Maybe an AAR could, but even then it is a guess. I don't know how you can make that call unless he is blatantly interfering, very close to the keeper
     
  9. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    [​IMG]
    So this isn't precisely behind navas. If your wondering where the ball is visible in the next frame, it shows up behind Messi's back. Navas has not planted either foot yet.

    So is navas' view obstructed by the piop? I think it is. Not very broadly, not for very long, but at the very instant that cost him a moment's hesitation.

    But Massref's analysis is kinda my point. Obstructing the view of the gk is really only enforceable by the ref team in the most egregious of circumstances: the practical limitations mean that we really have no hope of making subtle decisions on this type of interference. I absolutely agree that offside would not be called here. But the reasons are practical, not because the law has not been broken.
     
  10. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I don't think that Messi blocks LOS in any meaningful way here. When the ball is struck it is to the (keepers) left of Messi. If anyone is blocking the view it is Ramos. The fact that the ball passes Messi for a split second on the way is IMO not enough to have any effect or to be an offence.
     
  11. Schlager

    Schlager Member

    Dec 5, 2016
    yes, I thought about posting that screen shot, but I didn't because I always surf Big Soccer at work... :oops:

    I agree that Messi has some influence, I just don't think he has enough influence to ever be called at that location on the field. I think we are in violent agreement. Call it trifling, or whatever. I think we can agree that he is in and OSP, and he likely did influence the keeper for some fraction of a second, but you are never ever going to see that "amount" of offsides called as interfering with the keeper.
     
  12. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Screen Shot 2017-04-24 at 9.24.44 PM.png

    Keep does appear to have a view when the ball leaves Rakitic's foot. I think MassRef's take is spot on regardless - don't you dare make this call.
     
  13. refontherun

    refontherun Member+

    Jul 14, 2005
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks to me like Ramos, who is relatively stationary, is screening the keeper more than Messi, who is moving.
     
  14. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This is why people hate referees. Instead of admiring the beauty of the goal, we are discussing about possibly disallowing it...

    Soccer is a very simple game, don't over think it. Great goal and don't look for reasons to disallow the goal.
     
    akindc repped this.
  15. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    Now don't exaggerate. There are many more reasons why people hate referees.;)
     
    dadman, djmtxref and IASocFan repped this.

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