I don't agree with this completely. While it may be unfair to look at things like this, I don't think anyone would've said a year ago that improvement would be being the first or (at times) second attacking sub off the bench. You added context. I do think it shows how he's viewed at Dortmund that he plays over Schurrle, has left Mor in his dust, and at times plays over/before Dembele and Kagawa, but at some point, Pulisic and American fans will want him to become a starter. Maybe thats not after year 2, but fans will eventually say "screw the context, he needs to start, if he's to reach the level he's capable of." Eventually, he has to beat out all the options, it can't just be impressive that he's holding his own with high level older players with big pedigrees.
Gsus, man...he's bloody 18...get sober. The last few posts you put in are so outragious that I start to wonder if you have followed any career of any star from his first baby pro steps. You just sound like a person that wants to live the dream of someone else. What the hell does this quote bloody mean???
At some point. So, we can have this discussion again in 2 years then, right? Eventually? Sure - but I am talking about today - not tomorrow and not the day after. And yes, holding his own with high level older players with big pedigrees is impressive. If he doesn't eventually "beat out all the options" will you all view him as a failure? Jesus Christ! Germany, Spain, France go through these "new Messi" youth players every 2 or 3 years...let me tell you - they rarely become the "Next Messi". I am happy to see CP progress and if the becomes the best player the US ever had, great. If he doesn't, well then - we have a heck of a player on our hands anyway. Don't you guys think your expectations may be waaaay to high for this kid? Give it time.
Completely agree, and I'm not saying he's yet (or will at any point) be a failure, just looking at things through a full-world perspective, not just a good American player. He's not made any extraordinary leaps this season in his progression. He's made normal progression. Someone like Mbappe has made extraordinary leaps, Pulisic has only held his own. Will we look at him as a failure if he doesn't progress any further? Unfair or not, I think certainly. That'll still make him a very good player, he's probably already our best player anyway, but Landon Donovan, Clint Dempsey, Bradley were all of that level, at one time or another. People think Pulisic might eventually be a full level or two or three better. I don't think anyone's stating he won't become a better player, but if he could've made those leaps this season, that would've been probably the best case scenario for this season. This season wasn't a failure though, just not a great season, IMO. It probably was more realistic to expect the improvements in years 3 and 4 than 2, but now the pressure is on for years 3 and 4.
9 goals and 20 assists at 19 is insane. 5 goals and 11 assists at 18 is very good too. We don't have to trash Dembele to bring Pulisic up when he is already performing very well
My opinion is that these players have never reached the level of Pulisic over a period of time (a few months).
Wait, so it's "outrageous" to want a young attacking talent to play in an attacking role? Seems to me the counter of that, i.e., that a young attacker doesn't need a lot of minutes in an attacking position would be the more "outrageous" opinion. Personally, none of this remotely qualifies as "outrageous" on my scale. At a maximum, more like an semi-regular, mild annoyance that my tentative plans to get out the wet naps and enjoy some CP creativity in the final third are a bust. If by "live the dream of someone else", you mean see people/players/teams I like and enjoy succeed to their greatest potential, then guilty there. If you didn't mean that, then I guess I'm unclear on the point or relevance. (@ebbro - so that we can try to share a frame of reference, the post I'm quoting is what I would call overly dramatic.)
That's a very ironic post. Because I've used the Cristiano Ronaldo parallel to demonstrate why Dembele is a very flawed and controversial player as of today, as a similar type of player in Ronaldo arguably made his teams worse at that stage in spite of his crazy talent and future greatness, which also adds perspective that Dembele has a similarly high ceiling. At times he runs by players as if they weren't even there and flashes elite skills and unusual vision. Consistency in decision-making is an issue. And typically that improves over time. It did for Ronaldo. He got a better sense of what he could and couldn't do. Pulisic doesn't have that sort of ceiling. The parallel I come up with for him is Isco, who is a rotational player for Madrid. No shame in that at this point. Isco is a stud. But he's not an all-time great. Pulisic is a mature all-arounder. He's good at just about everything, but I don't know that he's great at anything. If he has a great attribute, it's his motor. He keeps coming all night. That's not going to improve with age. At best it stays the same. So he just has to keep sharpening what he's already good at. Being a mature all-arounder makes him arguably better than Dembele now, in spite of stats, which he's not as selfish to just go for. If you're picking a lineup right now, if you had to choose, maybe you should choose Pulisic. But if you're buying stock, do it for Dembele if they are the same price. Just because you make that claim doesn't make it true. I guess the attacking 4 players shouldn't try to make a move or pass unless it has a decent chance of resulting in a stat - goal or assist. Try that strategy and see how it works, taking on 3-4 defenders until you get in front of goal or can get it to a teammate in front of not. Actually, that's close to how Dembele has played this season, although he has made some improvement throughout with experience. The more important stat is how the offense and defense has functioned with a selfish or narrow-minded player but crazy talented player who turns the ball over at a high rate. At this point, it's fared worse on both ends than last year, and has been less consistent. Pulisic was part of the consistent potent offense the second half of last season.
In a hypothetical situation, if every attacking player is totally selfish, but manages to produce good numbers for assist/goal, I would advocate that they should continue to be selfish. At the end of the game, it is the score that counts.
Normal progression? I disagree. Look at the posts in this thread from Aug where because of buying Dembele/Mor/Schurrle/Gotze people thought he might not even make the 18 and should move to a club like Stoke or go out on loan. He got a taste of the life last season but this season became a legit top 4-5 attacker for a UCL QF club and someone who starts/contributes more often than not in the Bund. It's quite a leap to become an every day contributor at this level. The argument can be made the only superior attackers on BVB are Auba, Reus and Dembele, collectively worth 200M+ on the market. His composure, maturity and impact took a significant leap over the last year for me and it's clear with the NT too, comparing him from last summer to the recent matches. Much more polished. I don't see how this is normal when not only has no American ever done it as his age but only a handful globally even do it before their 21st birthday. Many youngsters get a few chances at 18/19 but fail to make the jump to every day contributor and on the path for 40+ appearances for such a club. He btw is tied with Mbappe for most assists for an U19 across the top 5 leagues and is #1 for an U19 across the top 4 leagues.
I'll stick with my prediction of a Francesco Totti like ceiling. Kid has many elite strengths - not the least of what are his passing and vision.
I don't agree, I think its normal. I think Americans don't realize this, and treat it as a moral victory that he's not busted by now. And he's really good for a player his age. Probably top 10 around Europe under the age of 20, but he's not yet stamped his authority as the first name or two football fans (non-Americans) mention when they speak about the best youngsters. Thats Mbappe and Dembele, in most likelihood. He still has a ways to go. He holds his own right now, but doesn't do much better. In the grand scheme of things if you forgot his age and where he's from, its not that impressive. Maybe for an 18 year olds, its really good. And for an American, its great, but people here live in a bubble. Thats how they view those things. When non-Americans who have no extra motivation to see him succeed start treating him like American fans do and his play is evaluated more on his production than age, thats when he'll really have arrived. He has a ways to go before he's the first player mentioned for his team on a UCL pregame show or something like that. In England, France, Germany, they aren't starting with a Pulisic update. They might compliment him when he has a nice run during the game, but he still needs to make another step up or two before he's regarded in the way that someone like Mbappe is. He's a background character to them. To non-Americans, Pulisic is a good piece in Dortmund's talented young squad, he's not the American superstar who they spend two hours of their weekend every week watching. Sometimes, I have to remind myself of this. I'm very excited about his potential and that he seems to be the first player of this level that we've produced, nothing like Freddy Adu or anyone like that, but we gotta keep things in perspective, and not just think of it through an American bubble.
I think you're confused. Nothing is normal about Christian Pulisic's success to date in ANY context. It has nothing to do with Americans living in a bubble, or being "unaware" or unable to "realize" something that you can. Who cares if he's not literally the first one or two names observers around the world mention when they speak of the game's most promising youngsters. That's not a criteria.
I'm fully aware of what what he's doing means on a global level and it simply is not common. You contradict yourself by admitting he's probably a top 10 U20 in Europe and that the only two names who'd be mentioned above him are Mbappe and Dembele, the top two U20's on this planet. And forgetting his age to make your point doesn't really make sense. It's because of his age that this isn't common. He has more appearances, mins and assists than Messi did at the same age. Messi only had 1 assist at 18. Pulisic has 11. You're essentially arguing, if you're not the top player for your birth year on the planet, meh, not impressive. I encourage you to look at what the top players in the game were doing at 18. Most weren't close to what Pulisic is doing now.
I'm not confused, at all. You might just not understand my point. Pulisic is not ahead of the curve for the best youngsters around the world his age. Mbappe is, he leads a team thats in the UCL SF's. Dembele plays for the same team as Pulisic, but right now makes a significantly bigger impact. Donnarumma is AC Milan's best player, and has been for like a season. There are a few of these players who are definitely ahead of the curve for a young player. Pulisic has plenty of time, but is right now on the curve, not ahead of it. He's right now in a pack with a bunch of players of this level. All I was saying was that he still needs to make these kind of steps up to being a starter, then to being Dortmund's best player or one of them before its even realistic for him to be World Class or playing for Madrid/Barca, etc. He's not done any of that. Maybe some wouldn't have expected it in year 2, but thats gotta come in the next few years. I think it will come, but I would've preferred that happened this year. This isn't a lost year like it might be for someone like Emre Mor, I think its a normal year, but its not a great year, like I think some are stating it was.
Yikes that is ridiculously arbitrary. Any reasonable person understands that Christian is ahead of the curve for an 18 year old professional soccer player. Donnarumma has nothing to do with it.
I'm not sure I follow. What's the significance of posting a list of some of the world's best players 23 and under?
There might be more ahead of him, I didn't search, those were the two off the top of my head. I can also remember Donnarumma. You are looking at things differently than me. I consider Mbappe, Dembele, Donnarumma to be of a higher level. Pulisic along with a bunch of other players have earned minutes for big teams, held their own, but there are really only a few who are impact players already. So yes, he's probably like top 10, but I think there are some mistakes in comparing him to Dembele, which was what prompted my original post. I completely disagree about the age thing. A player has made it when they start talking about their production, and their age is just an afterthought because they've already cleared that hurdle, and now can genuinely compete against the best of any age. And I never claimed he's meh, you are just making that up, this is what makes my point. If we want Pulisic to be world class, and usually only a few per generation ascend to that level, he is going to have to reach certain hurdles that he has not yet reached. I would've liked to see him gain a starting spot this season, that would've been a big step towards that, starting for a top 10 club in the world at age 18, and presumably being one of the Bundesliga's best attacking players (if he's starting in that position for a team with Dortmund's talent). He's not made that, which is normal, doesn't mean he's behind or anything, but he's not ahead of the curve.
I generally agree with your analysis and conclusions. I'd like to add that when Dembele most pisses me off he is in the defensive or middle third trying to go for goal by himself from horribly deep. It never succeeds, but does create opportunities down the flank to which he seems oblivious. I am seldom concerned about a "selfish" attacker who is close to the goal.
To show he's noticed as a very talented guy in a list of the best under 23. When you clear up the list to contain only his age group it becomes more impressive. It shows the notion he's something special isnot without merit.