China's Spanish tour [R]

A drastic change from the coach, I'd like to see something like this more often (even though it wasn't able to produce even a single goal). It hasn't been a successful trip, but I think this was more about seeing players and giving some different guys a shot, not going full throttle to win. Oh well, this losing streak just needs to end sometime soon.

 

if china cannot find a find a good pair of strikers up front to threat the opponent than china cannot advance in soccer. we need dong fangzhuo & co to step up and do the thing they r supposed to do - score goals. that is the one thing china needs to improve on. if we r facing angola, i dont care if we lose 2-3 , it wud be more satisfying than losing 0-2. and i wish all of china best players including the foreign players can play together more often it wud help them a lot.

 

I really really really hate Li Yi. I'm not talking about his lack of abilities. All of us knows he's a useless piece of shiet on the field. I'm talking about his attitude.

He scored luckily against Andalucia (very lucky, the keeper practically gave the ball to him) and then put his finger on his mouth to make the "SHHHH" gesture, then proceeded to karate-kick the corner flag. What a pea-brian a$$hole. I know it was the first goal against Euro team since Zhu took over but it was only an exibition game for Christ's sake. That fvcker deserves to be booed by the Andalucian fans.

He's a shame not only to the NT but to the entire Chinese population. I really want to grab an AK47 right now and blast his pea brian into nothingness.

 

You should watch the match, or the goal at least. The way Li Yi scored that goal made me laughed. I've seen so many amateurs better than this piece of junk.

 

Yes he's still in Rizhiquan. He was wanted by a Turkish club a while back but they couldn't agree to the transfer fee.

 

I think Zhu just isn't good enough to be our coach.

I often find the defense playing much too deep and the marking is too loose. A decent team can easily tear us apart. Also our defenders keep making the mistake of ball-watching instead of tracking down the attackers who are making runs into the box.

On the offense our problems are even worse. Because our basic techniques and football IQ are poor, we can't even string more than 2 or 3 passes together when being pressured. When you're not able to pass, you won't be able to score.

I think it's time for a coaching change. It doesn't seem Zhu is doing much to rectify the problems. He might not be able to do much to improve our players' techniques, but I'm sure a lot can be done tactically, or at least improve our players' football IQ.

I also dislike Zhu's man management. Why so little playing time for Gao Lin, Lu Lin, and Chen Tao? these 3 kids definitely have something special in them. To use players like Shao Jiayi and Li Yi who have proven time and time again to be mediocre (as in Shao) or even piss-poor (as in Li) would be a complete waste of opportunity for Gao, Lu, and Chen to grow and mature.

It makes me really really sad to see talents like these wasted by a short-sighted coach like Zhu. Hell even Krutzhen seem more of a capable coach than Zhu.

I'd say bring on a foreigner who really knows how to coach.

 

Welcome aboard.

Problem is our strikers are not supported by our midfield. There is not even one decent playmaker who has the vision and passing skills to spark the offense. We have lots of mediocre midfielders, but with them we can't generate much attack.

How many goals have you seen China scored on an open play (non-deadball situations)? Very few I would say.

That is why I've said so many times in this forum that we need more skilled midfielders who can generate attack, like Lu Lin, Chen Tao, etc. I even said I wanted Wu Wei'an to be in the NT because he reminds me of Nakamura.

Sigh...If only fvuking idiots like Zhu and CFA would listen...

 

bottem line is, there is no hope for China NT

 

I think this is the major point we need to be looking at...Despite the bright moments of AC04, the MNT has been on a major backslide since WC02...

 

I couldn't disagree more...Zhu is among the top soccer minds in China and I can't believe that only months after taking over the post, you could even begin to consider firing him.

On the defense, you want to see ball watching? I recently downloaded a video of Brazil's goals against us during the WC02, pathetic. I think 3 of the 4 were situations where 2 or 3 players simply missed their assignments, this problem is nothing new. As for the offense, I think our biggest problem is the lack of a solid playmaker in the attack (not necessarily at forward, but even in the midfield). It isn't so much passing, its just that we have nobody who can make something happen on the ball. Shao? Mediocre? He's our only player seriously making an impact in a first division European league. Shao is one of our better players and I think his experience is needed out there. The one thing we do agree on is Li Yi, but he hasn't been a regular member of the team, just on the squad for the recent Euro trip. Lu Lin? You're having a laugh! He's not even playing in the CSL, he doesn't deserve a spot on the MNT, yet...

I question some of Zhu's decisions with the roster and the formation, but I think he deserves at least a year and a half or so before we jump to rash conclusions (he didn't even take the job until around March 2005). Right now he's seeing what he has, bringing lots of players into the MNT camps, calling up a lot of different players. I think you'd be really surprised if you'd check out the number of different players receiving caps since Zhu took charge. He's still judging talent and I think allowances should be made. If he puts together a consistent roster and is still having the same problems in 6 months, then we start considering another direction, but I doubt that will be the case.

 

China has 2 ACQ in march, if they do poorly in those games I think Zhu could get the axe.

 

At that point, I'd be all for firing him, I just think he deserves a chance, especially as you'd be hard pressed to find a better fit inside of China and outside of China most of the top coaches already have a team, perhaps there will be some firings after the WC and we could get a better foreigner then.

 

So tell me, has our current NT improved compared to the one in '02? Sadly, I don't see much improvement, if any at all. Our defense is still full of holes, our defenders still ball-watching, our forwards still can't score, our football IQ still pathetically low.

Zhu might be the top soccer mind in all of China. But we're talking about CHINA here. It is a third-world footballing country. It doesn't produce any world-class coaches. Being top coach in China doesn't mean a thing among the plethora of true quality coaches in the footballing world.

However, judging from the games I've seen so far with the NT, Zhu's not good enough to guide the NT to become the Asian powerhouse, let alone a respectable side in world football.

Things I find disturbing about Zhu:

1. His choice of formation, the 3-5-2 (or variants of that, i.e. 5-3-2 when on defense, or 3-5-1-1) . To use this formation effectively you need excellent wingbacks who can run tirelessly up and down the flank. It demands a lot from the wingbacks, and that's why very few teams use it. While Sun Xiang is a decent player on the left with this formation, nobody other than Sun Jihai is good enough on the right. Jihai doesn't play most of the time for the NT due to his club duty, so our right flank is pretty weak when he doesn't play.

Against Andelucia for example, it is obvious that our right flank (Cao Yang) is very weak. This problem is magnified playing against a very skilled team. He was bad on the attack and a liability on defense, an obvious sign that the wingback task is too much for him.

A 4-4-2 would be much more balanced.


2. Doing the simple things wrong.

We have trouble stringing simple passes together, even during situations when there isn't much pressure from opposition. On throw-ins, we lose the ball very often and very easily. When we attack and have the ball near the corner flag, we short-pass the ball towards the touchline and cause an offside. We make many amateurish mistakes and it's not like one or two players. This is partly the fault of the players as they lack skills and IQ but also the fault of the coach as these things can be practiced to improve.

Remember Bora Milutinovic's quote: "The best move is the next move?" Our players need to use more of their brains, and Zhu needs to stress that (more) during training.

3. Player selection

Shao might be scoring a few goals in Germany, but I will hold my ground and say he's not good enough, and should be replaced by either Lu Lin or Chen Tao.

Shao plays in midfield but 1) he isn't a playmaker, he doesn't have enough vision/creativity/flair to support the fowards. 2) he lacks movement so he doesn't create much open space for himself and his teammates. 3) he's slow, not agile enough, can't win 1-on-1's. 4) he's not good defensively

His only plus side is experience, height, and left-footed FKs. Experience helps to a certain degree, but he's not a vocal leader so it only helps himself. Height is not crucial when you're an attacking mid. Plus he's not the type of player who uses his head too often. His left-footed FK is good, but we have other guys who can do it (Lu Lin, Sun Xiang).

Chen Tao and Lu Lin, on the other hand, are capable of 1, 2, and 3 above. Their high work-rate will help them out in 4). Lu Lin might not be a starter in CSL, but judging from the Youth Tourney I'd say he's good enough and better than Shao.

I won't be surprised to see if there is a high correlation between Shao as a starter and our team's goal scoring deficiency.

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Yes, this is a big problem. No solid playmaker. That's why I think Shao should be out and Chen Tao or Lu Lin in. They can do the job. They have the skills and mentality as I mentioned above.

I don't buy that. He's been in CSL long enough so he should know who are the best players to choose from in the CSL. There are only a handful of players in Europe so the choice is easy there. It shoudn't take that long to judge these players.

6 months is too long. I'll give him 3 if I were the CFA.

If he fails we should hire a foreign coach, one with a good track record (unlike Haan). CFA has the financial resources to do it. I don't see any reason why not.

 

And should.

 

I don't necessarily see the need to bring in a foreign coach, although I'm not against it. I definitely don't want to see a guy like Haan brought in again. Forza, I agree that if we do decide to get a foreign coach, they splash a bit of cash and get a top name.

Chen Tao is a good, young talent and he should be developed, thats exactly what they're doing with him. He will be a starter for us for many years, but he's not there yet. We have a bunch of talent on the youth team, but the majority aren't ready for the full show yet, Lu Lin is definitely among them.

As I said in my post, I think the Chinese team has been backsliding since WC02, that should have been what started us on our rise to promise, but it turned out to be the exact opposite. A lot of MNT's go through things like this, but we need to right the boat. Zhu's goal is putting together a proper MNT, he should know the CSL talent, but I don't expect him to have a regular look of the younger players (as until now the CSL hasn't had a reserve league and a lot of those guys weren't playing).

There are definitely problems when you play 3 games and only score a single goal. I haven't been able to see any of the games, so perhaps things are worse, but I'm not apt to change things after only a few months.

 

Chinese NT backsliding badly since 1997! 1997 China NT is still the srongest since 1990! even stronger than 2001 edition~ todays China NT? only 1/3 of them are asian top level players, others sucks! in one words~ we sucks!

Coach is not the problem but the quality of players, besides Li Jinyu, we have no real good forwads! as chenbo said, the young talents still not good enough for the NT at least in 5 or 6 years, if Zhu kick too many players like yan Song, yu Tao and Xu Liang, who is only 24 or 25 years old now, out of the NT that'll be stupid! considering our chief task is to compete with teams like Syria, Yemen, Tajikestan, India,Malysia, Singapore and Maldives, and the biggest aim is to enter Asian Cup final stage, we still need those veteran players!

 

Yan Song is dalian's main reserve player~ he played 22 league matches but only 819 minutes on the fields.

Yu Tao is shenhua's most appearence player, played 25 league matchs as starter player~

Man~ you guys need to follow CSL more~ not that stupid belgium division 2!

 

LOL yes the exciting Belgian Division 2. I'm itching to see who comes out on top of the league.

 

That's why we need to let them play more so they can develop quicker. The potential for those kids is huge, compared to the veterens like Shao who's probably not going to improve much more. I just think letting the kids play only the last 15 minutes of the game is a wasted opportunity for them to gain a lot of experience.

I can only describe the current NT with 4 words -- 惨不忍睹. I agree with Greenlion. It's more to do with lack of talent than the coach. But these are the best players we can possibly get, so the only way to improve the team is to get a world-class coaching staff, which we don't have in China.

But I have to admit, getting a top coach is only a quick fix. Our players' fundamentals are weak, even amateurish. In the long run we must have drastic changes at the grassroot levels which the CFA should take the lead, and that means strengthening the CSL and its clubs so that through better competition the quality of players will improve.

I think the reform of the CSL which gave rise to the Super League was a good move, as it forced the clubs to be more financially sound and responsible, which is crucial to the survival of the league. The intention of mimicking the English Leagues is good because it is very well structured.

Now I don't follow the CSL often so I'm not very familiar with it. But the least the CFA can do is set up a reserve match league (like in England) so that youngsters in CSL clubs have more exposure to competitive matches.

Some other suggestions for improving the league:

- need to have better pitches. The quality of pitches affect gameplay, which affects the attractiveness of the game, which affects attendence, which affects club revenue.

- better referees. There were talks about incresing the ref's salary to deter them from accepting match-fixing bribes, has it been implemented yet?

- relax the max foreigners rule, from max 3 to max 6. I know it's a double-edged sword - more foreigners means higher quality of football but it affects Chinese player development. However I think we have a lot more to gain than to lose. As the quality of play improves attendence and sponsorships will rise and the money could be spent on better coaches and facilities. The quality of football is very low and our goal should be getting it up ASAP and sacrificing player development for that is viable I think.

- better stadium. Almost all of the stadiums have sub-par facilities with poor seats, poor "VIP" rooms, pathetically small "concession stands" selling watered down coke, etc. It's not a very good experience going to a game like this. People would rather watch televised matches from the comfort of their homes. Also, I don't think there's even one SSS in all of China?

- better marketing. Football is entertainment, and entertainment needs to be sold. But marketing is a relatively new concept in China and it shows. I've lived in Shenzhen for a year and I've never seen an ad for Jianlibao, not on TV, or newspaper/magazines, not even outside of Shenzhen Stadium. We need to take a page out of the J-League or American sports like NBA where they've done a tremendous job at selling the game. Why not have team mascots? All-star game? Souvenior shops where fans can buy CSL stuff? The image of the CSL needs a complete changeover. Why not hire a marketing agency to do the job?


I'm just throwing ideas around. I want to hear what you guys think.

 

The CSL needs whole sale changes in order for the full potential of the Chinese NT can be unleashed. Sure its great to see some players go off to Europe, but those are special cases. A strong domestic league is key here, China first, though, has to reform at the top first IMHO.

 

Jiayi is only 25~ if not the NT's stupid elimination in the WCQ and Munich 1860's blockhead coach, Shao will be the soul of NT, infact that's why Bora called on Shao Jiayi and Zhao Junzhe in 2001, he want them to replace Li Xiaopeng and Li Tie in near future, how old are they？ Zhao Junzhe 26, Zheng Zhi 25, it's true younger players should have more chances but kick players like Shao out of NT is another kind of waste, in fact I think the 2004 AC belongs to players:Shunsuke Nakamura & Shao Jiayi!

Totally agree~ and no world-class coaches like to teach China NT I think, that's like to let a college professor to teach elementary school students.

but the problem is~ the reform happens too late! it should start in 1999, Not in 2004!

We used to have a reserve league - the coca-cola football league, but CFA cacelled it in 2002 season~ thanks god the reserve league will resume in next season

Right! I hate watching players playing in kailyard any more! but the main problems is currently no CSL clubs could afford the construct of a new stadia, and not like Japan and Korea, they built up many stadia for WC 2002, but we
like to build big stadia with tracks instead of proper soccer venue.

the salary of refs still not increased yet~ and we still have no professional refs~ that's a big problem to the whole asia, includs Japan and korea, in fact we know countries like Japan, Singapore and Kuwait have many stupid and dirty refs.

I don't think so~ watching 12 foreiners and 10 Chinese playing have no difference with watching european leagues from TV, that'll be no good for the league

agree~ as I said before, we need more and more good stadia, Shanghai is going to bulid another soccer stadium recently.

ture~ CSL should learn more from CBA, let football experts to run the CFA and let commercial experts to run the league