Chicken or Egg: Who is responsible for youth development?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Eleven Bravo, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to transfermkt Carleton's contract ends on December 31, 2018.

    Edited: But Atlanta can offer him $1 million a year because HGPs salaries don't the salary budget.
     
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  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I saw that too but trust Clint Eastwood's knowledge more than a website.
     
  3. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I'm not sure I believe either of those statements :)

    HGP salaries don't count against the salary budget but there may be separate limits. And since contract terms are rarely announced, how would transfermkt know?
     
  4. waltlantz

    waltlantz Member

    Jul 6, 2010
    What ever happened to that FIFA hearing on solidarity payments vis a vis DeAndre Yedlin and Crossfire Academy?
     
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Still going.
     
  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok I got that wrong.

    Salaries for HGPs on the supplemental or reserve roster don't count against the salary budget and may earn up to $125k.

    HGPs salaries do count against the salary budget of they're on the senior roster.
     
  7. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Transfermarkt is quite accurate at contract length for.....non-MLS players.

    Hard to blame them though as whether a player has option years is usually kept under wraps. Carleton likely has two option years.

    As to who's responsible for youth development I still say it's mostly the players who develop themselves. I was just thinking about Berbatov and posted a few gifs in the Haji thread since Haji isn't doing anything at the moment. Did Bulgaria develop Berbatov? Nope. Berbatov developed that joyful skill by spending hours with the ball on the streets in his Bulgarian city as a kid. It's the job of a country's league and Fed to find that talent, implement it tactically into a team, give it a place to play, move up from one level to the next and ultimately reach its ceiling.

    There's a park near my house I go walk around with a stroller most evenings. They have 1-2 soccer pickup games going every single night. I stop and watch. Know what sticks out to me?

    I don't hear any English.

    I see flair. I see flicks. I see tricks. I see these guys showing a pure love for the game. Every day they look forward to playing pickup yet it's not the white suburban kids. They just aren't there. Night after night I watch and no white kids show up and play.

    And that goes back to our system doesn't provide access to the kids who in their households, grow up truly loving the game where soccer is a way of life.

    Reminds me of growing up playing basketball. To play pickup with the guys who have that flair, who always have a ball with them, who eat, sleep, breath basketball, I had to go play where I was often the only white kid.

    So when we see so many domestic robots devoid of skill/flair, what we're missing is the street game. That often gets conflated with playing in the streets in poor neighborhoods. Historically there's truth to that but what it really means is a kid spending hours alone with the ball and hours playing pickup in the inner city or suburb. That's where you develop innate skill and it happens when you're a kid.

    It's the system which then molds that talent.

    That's why the USSF tossing Tom Byer to the curb is such an embarrassment and shows how incompetent they are. His target is young kids and their parents/households. Pulisic basically learned to walk with a ball at his feet. Byer wants to give parents the education to do the same and change the culture within households. The USSF doesn't deem that to be important. What schmucks. At its simplest what it would do is give academies more talented and skilled kids entering the organized game. Instead they think they can develop that skill in older kids in an organized environment.

    It's backwards.

    Pulisic didn't develop his touch playing organized ball. He refined it there. When you see clips of him as a kid he was dribbling around players older than him. He already had it and it happened at home.
     
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  8. waltlantz

    waltlantz Member

    Jul 6, 2010
    I think you are a bit too hard on the academy which is STARTING to bear fruit.

    It is true we need better scouting in the hoods. But the Top Drawer Soccer Show podcast said really that's more on clubs than the federation, even in more established countries.

    Also where do you live?
     
  9. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If anyone happened to catch the 60 Minutes interview with Pulisic and his parents the other week, his dad said this exactly.
     
  10. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bring up a point:

    Should ALL domestic players be cap exempt players?

    It’s not that I don’t mind seeing teams find talented foreign talent, but I don’t want it to come at the sacrifice of developing American talent. Ultimately, teams should have every competitive edge if they can develop and build domestic talent. I’m more than willing to sacrifice some parity if it means that American players are more of a premium in our own league.
     
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  11. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Frankly. this is the generational incremental development we are seeing now that we are seeing young players whose parents played the game (and who have been able to watch quality matches like Europe on TV since the mid 90s and had a domestic league they could actually watch in person (not as high quality as in Europe but it was a pro league that could be watched in person). The generation before that didn't really have that.
     
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  12. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I do think the "blame" falls on MLS. Then again the academy system and homegrown initiative in MLS is only a little over 10 years old. We have expectations for our academy system based on our knowledge of Europe/South America/Mexico................where they have generations worth of a head start when it comes to professional youth development.

    Also worth noting that half of MLS has been founded since 2011. Half of the league is less than a decade old. They've barely figured out what they're doing with their first teams, much less their academies and reserve teams.

    The clubs that got an early start on their academies (NYRB, RSL, FCD, etc.) have really started to churn out talent. Not all of it is staying in MLS. In fact, a lot is heading to Europe. RSL just lost four academy kids to Europe. Those clubs are not only developing talent, but have large scouting networks to identify talent.

    Its worth noting that most of the "elite youngsters" we have in Europe spent time in the development academy. So Weston McKennie spent 7 years at FCD's academy, moved to Europe, and was making his Bundesliga debut less than a year later. So those clubs (FCD, RSL, NYRB, etc.) must be doing something right. There are a bunch of clubs (SKC, Philly, etc.) that have caught the early developing clubs and are also doing great things.

    I just think we need a little patience here.............................
     
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  13. bob347

    bob347 Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Oct 15, 2017
    Kids do it for themselves because they realize early, they have the potential, they like playing in front of big crowds and there is a potential big payday if they can go pro. Our current soccer culture offers none of this. Small "Messi" type kids get weeded out early because they're not big and fast enough at U10. Kids only play in front of their parents. Players on travel teams can't even play high school ball and what's the payday for a HG, $40-60K per year....? The one solution is that MLS needs to be involved with the schools from middle school through college. Let the kids play school ball for the peer pressure and the larger crowds. Sign the best ones while in high school and use colleges as your reserve teams. Quit trying to do this the European way, it's going to take forever...
     
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  14. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bump this discussion as youth development is always a big interest of mine...

    Thoughts on USSF providing clubs stipends for playing their youth players minutes. Say, player C plays 1000 minutes, USSF writes MLS/club a check for X amount for every USSF eligible youth player.
     
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  15. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Seems like it could cause a lot of resentment from fans and other players. Player X is seen as not deserving of a start but starts anyway so that the club could get a check from the USSF. It would have to be a big check too. You're not going to see a team play someone they don't want to play for 100k.
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Interesting. I think the stick is more effective than the carrot here. If a team doesn’t play or handsomely pay its reserve players, another team can pick them up for free or a nominal amt. Similar to NFL practice squad, MLB 40 man roster and (I think) the NHL.
     
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  17. saxman

    saxman Member

    Nov 12, 2005
    Frederick,Maryland
    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. I've been saying this for years. When kids play on their own time in backyards, cup-de-sacs, alleys, open fields, tennis courts, not just organized/league time, the talent will develop. There are some basketball courts near my house. In good weather (and even winter) I see kids shooting and playing on their own. I see adults playing for the love of the game. A love they developed as kids. they are nearly always in use. There are also four soccer fields at a nearby school. During certain weekends in the spring and fall they are packed with activity. Organized leagues and games. After that, they sit vacant. On occasion now I see some pick-up games. Usually adults. And all Spanish speakers. I'm about to turn 58. It's a little late for this gringo (who speaks passable Spanish) to try to join them. My body, especially my ankles, just can't hack it. On a VERY few occasions as of late I have seen younger folks, Jr High or High School age, playing some pick-up games. And even an individual or two that goes out by themselves with a few balls and cones and practices on their own. That is how talent is developed. But until that becomes a normal sight across the country, we will not develop enough talent. We will just develop organization...at best.
     
  18. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #218 Paul Berry, Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
    Do you see kids playing pickup football, baseball or hockey?

    When I grew up in England we'd play soccer or cricket every spare moment we had. The local parks and schools always had kids playing soccer.

    These days they're inside playing FIFA 19 or GTA, maybe against Berbatov's grandkids online.
     
  19. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I see a lot of street hockey but I'm in a strong NHL market so that makes sense. There are several soccer fields within a five minute drive from where I live and I never see pickup soccer.
     
  20. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very interesting thread about life in a Euro Club Youth Academy:

    1084238949428678657 is not a valid tweet id


    Also should note that Earnie Stewart (former AZ Sporting Director) brought a lot of these philosophies to the Philadelphia Union's Academy when he was Sporting Director.
     
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  21. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIFA's sure taking their sweet time.
     
  23. Force11

    Force11 Red Card

    United States
    Dec 24, 2018
    I think our youth are now good enough to the point where they can get the 2,000+ minutes they need in USL and jump into MLS when they are ready.

    before it was sign to MLS contract and play at 18 years old, when the said player was not ready for MLS level or nowhere near it. But MLS team did want to showcase that their young academies could produce pro's so fast, a fallacy.
     
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