Chicken or Egg: Who is responsible for youth development?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Eleven Bravo, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Step Over

    Step Over Member

    Oct 18, 2008
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I may be wrong but there doesn't seem to be a pipeline from MLS to Europe yet. Once the likes of Davies, Almiron and a few others have gone and proven the quality of MLS players maybe the floodgates will open.

    Players like Freddy Adu ($2 million) and Jozy Altidore ($10 million) haven't really set a precedent. The most successful transplants like Dempsey, McBride, Beasley, and Howard all moved a long-time ago.

    There have been more successes in the 20-teens but what are we averaging, one per year?
     
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  3. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are a few after Altidore... Holden, Yedlin, Cameron and Miazga (loaned out) all made the move from MLS.
     
  4. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    European clubs want our raw materials, not the MLS vets. Our 16-18 year olds like Pulisic, McKennie, Sargent, etc. And who can blame them? Those kids are all available on a free transfer if they haven't signed on with MLS. Every week we hear about a new teenager trialing or signing on in Europe.

    Why sign Tyler Adams when he's 20 with a steep transfer price, when you can have Weston McKennie for free at 18? Not even training compensation payments....................

    This is a big problem for MLS academies. USMNT fans seem to revel in youngsters leaving MLS academies on free transfers. RSL is likely losing three kids from their recent U19 academy team to Europe. Taylor Booth is already at Bayern, Richie Ledesma is trialing at PSV, and Sebastian Soto is trialing in Germany (Freiburg? Can't remember off the top of my head). We just heard that Uly Llanez of the Galaxy is training with Bayern Munich (any training session with a kid that age is really a trial). Its a daily thing now.

    Two thoughts:

    1) Why do fans not give credit to MLS clubs for developing these players? Weston McKennie was at FC Dallas for 7 years prior to moving to Schalke. How many years was Erik Palmer-Brown at SKC before being sold to Manchester City? 6?

    2) What is RSL's incentive to invest in the next wave of youngsters if all of the current U19 crop head to Europe on free transfers?
     
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  5. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. MLS clubs are good at developing youth players. It is not good at developing professional senior level players.

    2. RSL's incentive is, much like most teams, the fact that they've all spent tens of millions on new facilities and youth teams to attract talent. And that if they produce enough quality, at least some of them will stay. Danny Acosta, Justen Glad, Brooks Lennon, Bofo Saucedo, and Corey Baird all played for RSL youth teams. The rub so far is that all these players have lower ceilings. Play a Tyler Adams or a Matt Miazga, and sell them on, and the Sebastian Soto's and Richie Ledezma's will follow.
     
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  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most of those were in one a year

    Howard 2003
    Beasley 2004
    McBride 2004
    Holden 2005
    Adu 2007
    Dempsey 2007
    Altidore 2008
    Guzan 2008
    Cameron 2012
    Montero 2013
    Yedlin 2014
    Gonzalez 2014
    Miazga 2016
    Harrison 2018

    Liam Ridgewell and Sam Adekugbeat (Canada) moved to Brighton and Jermaine Defoe to Sunderland. There are probably others.
     
  7. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hardly MLS products...
     
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  8. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn’t think Holden left MLS that early. I just checked he left MLS in 2010.
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He joined Sunderland in 2005. As soon as he got there he fractured an eye socket head-butting a Newcastle supporter's fist and an ankle injury kept him out for the rest of the season. That's how he ended up at Houston.
     
  10. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, but I don’t think he was in MLS before 05. His MLS years were from 2006 to 2009.
     
  11. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't think Acosta or Glad have low ceilings. You mention Adams and Miazga. Miazga is a CB, Glad is a CB. I think Glad has a higher ceiling. Adams is a full-back, Acosta is a fullback. I think Acosta has a higher ceiling.
     
  12. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like Glad, but I think he's athletically limited. Until he moves to Europe, he's basically young Chad Marshall to me. But he's only 21, so he has plenty of time.

    CB's reeeally deep for the USMNT.

    I see Acosta's really hyped, I just don't buy it yet. I'm waiting to see if he turns into Farfan or Vincent. Fullback's obviously muuuch weaker on the team though...
     
  13. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Glad is really mobile. I have no clue where you are getting this from. He's really nothing like Chad Marshall. In fact, they are almost polar-opposite CB's. Marshall is good in the air, and not that good at anything else. Glad is good at everything other than the air. Glad played just as well as Miazga at the same age last season as Miazga did two seasons prior, but one played for one of the best teams in MLS, the other had to carry an average team. Glad should be in Europe at the end of the season. Acosta is already better than both Farfan and Vincent. RSL's record with Acosta in and out of the lineup the last two years is pretty astonishing.

    I think these two really suffer in perception because fans don't want to take the time to watch RSL.
     
  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #189 DHC1, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    Didn't you answer your own question with the bold?

    MLS does deserve lots of credit for creating systems that identify talented youth and putting them into training systems (where they do develop, of course).

    However, MLS' decision to style itself similar to US pro sports rather than adapting to the existing global soccer meritocracy has its fallback and one of them is that it will lose out of SC & T payments that they chose not to adopt.
     
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  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    What is the rationale for Carelton staying at ATL once his contract expires? I'm assuming that he'll have significant interest from leading global programs now that he's 18 and available on a free?
     
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  16. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    There isn't one. But ATL reportedly has a couple of option years left on Carleton's contract. (Don't know if that's been verified) So we'll see. He won't be available on a free. ATL has also done nothing over the last season to increase his value, though. How much can they reasonably ask for?

    We do somewhat have to remember that Atlanta United is less than 2 years old. People act like they should have a hell of a clue what they're doing when it comes to these developmental matters. They did a great job starting their academy early. They did a great job with the roster on their first team, and having an identity there with Tata & the South Americans. But the bridge from the academy to the first team is still a work in progress like it is for many clubs.

    Keep in mind that when it comes to SC&T payments, its not MLS HQ that's the problem. Its not MLS clubs either, many of whom are supportive of the concept. Fernando Clavijo of FCD has been quite vocal, saying the lack of such payments is a big problem for their developmental model. RSL probably feels the same way right now. The most vociferous opposition to the SC&T payments has been the MLS Players Union. Try to figure that one out. Hopefully this is something that's addressed in the next round of collective bargaining so that the MLSPU gets on board.

    If people want MLS clubs to continue ramping up their investment in academies, and continue ramping up the quality of players in a pipeline to European clubs...................then MLS clubs have to profit from their initial investment. People seem to want to "stick it to MLS" by having the kids leave on frees. But that's not a healthy outcome for the league or the next generations of prospects.
     
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  17. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's Chad Marshall in that he'd be an MLS lifer with few caps. Chad's 6'4 and slow. Glad is 6'1 and, in my opinion, pretty slow. He's not Omar Gonzalez slow, but he's not young Matt Besler (who I think has lost a bit of a step now) fast.

    Glad's a year and a half younger, but Miazga's shown to be a better player at a higher level. And he's paired his aerial dominance and mediocre footspeed with vastly improved passing, particularly long passing forward.

    I hope Glad moves so that he's challenged at a higher level, and we can see how much he improves. I'd rather Glad, CCV, Parker, or EPB take over Brook's starting spot on the team, just because Brooks is so injury prone.

    Acosta could very well be better than Farfan and Vincent. But my point with that is that Farfan and Vincent had hype, then fell off a cliff. You could add Rosenberry to that list as well.
     
  18. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    People want to stick it to MLS specifically when they miss-handle prospects like Carleton and EPB. Nobody minds when Miazga leaves on a transfer fee, or if/when Adams goes to RBL for 5 million.
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thanks for the clarification on Carelton. Shame on his agent if there really are option years left on his contract after he turns 18.

    I'm not sure blame is warranted vs. ATL - they're potentially simply maximizing their value by slow-rolling his progress while they still have control over him as a player. This is a pretty big reason IMO why so many talented youths are bypassing professional contracts with MLS.
     
  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    FWIW - I'm not in the "stick it to MLS" camp (and was going to say that this opinion doesn't exist but a subsequent post showed the irony of that statement!) but rather it seems clear to me that MLS' intended strategy to disrupt the global soccer market has some significant challenges.

    I concur that it appears that the players union is the main culprit behind lack of SC&T payments and I hope that they correct this.

    In another post, you stated that MLS doesn't view itself as a developmental league and that's the real issue I think that MLS/USSF need to address.
     
  21. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I dont' want to come across as one of those teetering older guys saying "BACK IN MY DAY"..................but I'm going to do so here.

    Comparing any young centerback to the 18-20 year old Chad Marshall should be a massive compliment actually. At the age Justen Glad is now......................Chad Marshall was one helluva dynamic centerback. He was always great in the air and on set-pieces. One hell of a leader from day one with the Strikers, Stanford, Crew, etc. He won everything there was to win as a youngster. What did he win? 4 California state titles in a row with the Strikers? This was pre-DA days, when that type of title meant everything. He was GREAT in MLS from day 1. He finished a close 2nd in MLS ROY voting after Dempsey. He was just awesome. He reportedly did have Euro opportunities, but chose not to pursue them. There are guys like that. Besler could have gone abroad. Pope could have gone abroad.

    Injuries, wear-and-tear, concussions (especially the concussions), etc. took their toll on Chad. Year after year the grind has worn him down.

    He was arguably the best teenage centerback I've ever seen in person. And that's not hyperbole. If you told me I could have a 20 year old Chad Marshall or a 20 year old Justen Glad..................I take Chad Marshall HANDS DOWN. I wouldn't be able to answer fast enough. Chad Marshall EVERY DAY.

    A 20 year old Chad Marshall or a 20 year old EPB is one I'd have to think about more carefully.
     
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  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC

    Get off my lawn.
     
  23. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #198 mattjo, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    [​IMG]

    As a fellow long time BSer who remembers watching the World Cup the last time we didn't play in it, I wanted to show my solidarity.
     
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  24. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
     
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't transfer fees apply to any players under 23 whether they are out of contract or not? I know they do in UEFA.

    Never mind, I'm wrong. Miazga would have gone on a free had his contract expired.
     

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