Chicken or Egg: Who is responsible for youth development?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Eleven Bravo, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not every Academy graduate is going to become a super star.
     
  2. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    So then what's the accomplishment? You have a bunch of "academy graduates" that are just filling up space with squad roles and will make no real imprint on anything impressive other than just being another number that helps a faulty narrative? Luton Town and Burton Albion have players like that, as well.

    If anything, FC Dallas track record is pretty bad. Kellyn Acosta was supposed to be some big star coming out of US youth teams. They haven't developed him well. Jesse Gonzalez has been the same player for three years now. We've seen no progression. So I suspect we are going to be told that Cannon is the top example for Dallas. Except, last year he registered 1 minute in MLS. They want us to believe that he went from a player who isn't good enough to play more than 1 minute over the course of a full season to one of their best players in five months? I don't believe thats the case. Maybe you do.

    Should we go through the lists of busts from their academy? Leyva, Luna, Hernandez, Baladez, Zendejas, Top, Craft, Guillen, Woodberry, Garcia. Not one quality player there. A guy like Richard Sanchez had all this hype, and Dallas didn't develop him. He only develops when he joins a pretty widely agreed upon bad organization like Chicago Fire. In fact, one could argue their two best academy products to this point (McKennie and Hyndman) left the academy before signing pro contracts, and are their two best academy products because they didn't sign with Dallas. McKennie certainly is their best academy product. I'm not the biggest Hyndman fan out there, but who are we holding up against him? Gonzalez, Sanchez, Acosta, Cannon? Hyndman might very well be the second best as of now.
     
  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    3/4 of those homegrowns were signed knowing full well they weren't going to be stars. In fact, most of them weren't. Some homegrowns will be roster filler, some will be squad rotation players, some will be MLS starting caliber, some will be MLS-All Star level, some will be USMNT-level........................and very, very, very few are going to be World Class level.

    That's just real life. Its as true for FCD as it is for Liverpool, Bayern Munich, or Real Madrid.

    One "star" in McKennie with a group of other USMNT-pool players (Acosta, Gonzalez, Hyndman, Cannon, etc.) in a 5-year cohort is about what one can expect. And that is better than 95% of MLS academies. Or maybe FCD should just give up and become the Houston Dynamo or Portland Timbers.................................
     
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  4. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Busts are to be expected... if we had more clubs like FC Dallas with their youth development, we’d instantly be a better soccer nation.
     
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  5. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is Chris Richards too... 18 year old homegrown FCD player going on loan to Bayern Munich.

    There is not much FCD can do if a big club comes in and gives offers to its academy players (like McKennie and Hyndman). This to me is a sign that FCD is doing something right.
     
  6. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    England just made their deepest run since 66 with a Premier League that everyone complains doesn't give English players enough of a chance. And again, outside of 66, they went through the 70s and 80s pre-Premier League without making it this far and usually going out very early. And no, they never did much in the Euros either. Personally, I think this supports the idea that competition and getting the best players playing against other top players is more effective at generating the small number of high quality players needed for a national team than big numbers of mediocre players playing against each other while better players from other countries are cast aside.
     
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  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I personally think the issue is simply managing expectations for what MLS academies are going to able to produce in 2018.

    FCD has only been in the youth development game for 10 or so years, and most MLS clubs have been investing less than that. And people are complaining that an MLS academy was build from scratch, and in 10 years ONLY has produced one Bundesliga-caliber player, a bunch of USMNT pool players, and a bunch of MLS caliber players (the Ulloa types). What do people want? Do they think that after only 10 years an MLS club is going to be churning out 5 Weston McKennie's a year? I don't really get it. There's this bizarre disconnect between reality and what we're seeing on these boards right now.

    If churning out Weston McKennies was easy, then Bundesliga clubs would have no need for American..........................Weston McKennies.
     
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  8. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be clear, I’m not arguing that there has to be this production of eleven Luka Modric’s every year. It’s less on the end product which I’m arguing over the effort to invest in youth development. Some clubs are trying, others aren’t. More, even the clubs that are trying, need to ALWAYS be asking themselves, what can be done better? My only problem is saying what we’re doing now is good enough. Even if we are producing eleven Luka Modric’s a year then I’d say how do we produce a hundred Luka Modric’s a year? That doesn’t mean I don’t give credit when it’s due, it just means we haven’t accomplished anything yet to allow ourselves to think that we should simply just be content with where we are at.

    ...and for the record, I’m not arguing that quality production is something remotely easy to accomplish. I’m saying though we should never think we can’t raise the standard. I get managing expectations, but I also get not being complacent.

    More, I understand patience. But even in the shortest term can outline a team’s path and mission to reach a long term goal. And so long as we’re working towards that path then okay.
     
  9. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    If we had more clubs that had youth talent like Dallas, we'd be better. They've yet to actually show they can develop them into needed professional quality.
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hyndman was named young player of the year at Rangers despite only joining them in January. Maybe he's getting short shrift in the Premier League but he's still only 22. Eintracht Frankfurt and Besiktas are rumored to be interested in Emmanuel Paga.

    Anyway, this is MLS and the goal of an academy is to produce players good enough for MLS. Anything else is a bonus.

    11.7% is the number of U19 Premier League academy players that make it to the first team roster. Most end up in the lower divisions or quit the game altogether (not many English players go on to play overseas). So that's the first benchmark.


    The same goes for several American players that have joined teams in Europe.
     
  11. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FCD is currently top of the West. Three homegrowns played in the last game. These guys are producing for thier club.
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FCD five starters:
    • Jesse Gonzalez
    • Kristoffer Reaves
    • Reggie Cannon
    • Victor Ulloa
    • Kellyn Acosta
    Real Salt Lake: 5 starters, 1 sub
    • Glad
    • Acosta
    • Lennon
    • Saucedo
    • Baird
    • Herrera (sub)
    Western Conference
    1. Dallas
    2. LAFC
    3. Sporting KC
    4. Real Salt Lake
     
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  13. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only one of the bolded clubs decided recently to hire a technical coach. Which, by the way, is standard practice everywhere else in the world. Can you guess which one?

    We can see things working in other countries, at the national, and at club levels. Some are transferrable. Some are not. Yet I see no, or little, effort to bring successful traits into our systems.

    Hell, while USSF and MLS were reeling from WCQ failure, they cancelled Tom Byer's pilot program, buried the results of the DoublePass assessment (whatever the heck they were), and signed a secret contract with SUM. While MLS teams were building big, grandiose training facilities, the MLSPU/USSF were hiding behind a flimsy interpretation of a court ruling to ensure the continued denial of solidarity payments and training compensation. Despite the initial intention of limited international roster spots, MLS clubs have become exceedingly efficient at throwing Greencards on any and all foreign talent, thus nullifying the rule and allowing entire lineups to be made up of foreign players without US citizenship.
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Peter Vermes doubles as technical director at SKC, Fernando Clavijo is technical director at FC Dallas, Mike Sorber is director of soccer operations (same thing) at LAFC, so I assume it's RSL where the previous TD is now GM.

    There's a whole other thread on solidarity payments. I don't think schools or colleges can accept them (NCAA?) and pay to play academies would be double-dipping. I'm all in favor of non-profits and lower division clubs getting something and I think TFC has voluntarily provided payments for developing players..

    DoublePass seems to like the ISO of football development but I thought it was by club, not federation.

    What's the secret SUM deal about?

    As for the green cards, yes it's a potential problem. However, the Premier League, Bundesliga and Serie A have high numbers of foreign players and it doesn't seem to have affected their NT...wait a minute....:eek:

    Anyhoo, even if everything about USSF and MLS is shit, don't you think having 11 former MLS academy players on the pitch is a positive sign?
     
  15. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The "Secret SUM Deal" was not a secret. Contracts often times have renewal/extensions built in. If both parties are good with the state of things, they sign the extension, if not they don't. It's as simple as that. Perhaps you would have rather the USSF made a deal with MP & Silva to market the US teams? I dunno...that might have worked out. They claimed to be able to give MLS $4B not too long ago. Then again they are close to going out of business now too....


    I dunno, it's kind of difficult to fund the national teams, and all of the other US soccer programs if the checks don't arrive on time and/or bounce...........Do you know the main reason the USSF and FMF use SUM? Because they pay in full, on time, and the checks ALWAYS clear. Oh and they are very good at marketing and selling soccer in the US.

    The MLSPU is against TC and S payments as they feel that those will impede a players ability to move. Those add costs to transfers, which are sometimes paid out of the transfer fee. Players often times get a cut of transfer fees. The PU sees these payments as harmful to a players earning potential. With the growing emphasis on Academies it would be in MLS teams' best interests to be able to get TC and S payments............why would the teams block those???

    As for the Green Cards. MLS doesn't determine those. Teams merely file the paperwork and make a case. The US Government ultimately determines who gets a greencard, and how quickly one is obtained.

    US Nat fans have been saying for years that players need to go to Europe so that they are training against better players each and everyday. Players need to fight for and earn their playing time. MLS is bringing in more talented players, increasing the competition for spots and playing time. How is this any different? Why is this unacceptable for MLS, yet acceptable for players who are outside of MLS?
     
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  16. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Technical director vs. guy who actually coaches youth players on technical skills.

    Read up: https://www.sportingkc.com/post/201...-michel-ribeiro-staff-academy-technical-coach

    Wait a minute, are the EPL, Serie A, and Bundesliga waaaaaaaaay better than MLS? Could... could that have anything to do with the fact that their national teams blow ours out of the water, while ours drowns in a marsh in Trinidad and Tobago? :confused:

    Obviously having HGP's on the field is positive, nobody says otherwise. Making talent better is still the goal. Clearly MLS teams help develop youth talent. Then, some of that talent gets to the pinnacle, MLS, and... stops. MLS does not develop senior players, not Americans, not the South Americans MLS clubs are fond of buying, not anyone, consistently. That's a problem that MLS teams will have to fix if they ever want to be able to increase their level of play organically (instead of overpaying for stars a la China), or if they ever want to sell their choicest players for money.
     
  17. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It really is so simple. USSF Presidential candidates, from crazy to Carter, campaigned on promises to re-evaluate the USSF relationship with SUM after the MLS Marketing Team got bounced in Trinidad. Meanwhile, USSF slipped in an extension with SUM to their 2017 end-of-year statements, making Cordiero's platitudes even less honest than usual politician-speak.

    Oh I dunno, maybe I would've wanted a company that makes sense and isn't a made-up strawman? Maybe I would've wanted Traffic Sports? Feel free to suggest that I would want whichever corrupt organization you want. Personally I'm leaning towards Umbrella Corp.


    Read post again. Never said teams were blocking them. In fact, I'm a big proponent.
    Lol. US teams hire lawyers and get players through the greencard process. If you don't think they're good at it you simply aren't thinking or aren't watching. Within MLS's rules, GC holders count as "domestic". MLS changes rule to only count "US/Canadian citizens" as domestic, and all of a sudden the loophole is closed.
    Ye olde "competition" argument. Then don't be mad that the best US teens go to Europe, leaving their MLS academies in the dust. It's just competition. But make sure to market ONLY THROUGH SUM. Wouldn't want any competition there, would we.
     
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  18. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    What does SUM have to do with youth development?
     
  19. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It actually is really simple. The candidates were talking about the TELEVISION RIGHTS! The extension signed in January was for the marketing rights of US Soccer. You know, the promotion of Friendlies, the teams themselves, etc.
    No shit sherlock. MLS can't change the rule to just allow Canadians and US citizens to count as domestic. That would violate US labor laws, and you know this. It would be discrimination due to a person's nationality.
    I know that you are a proponent. I was simply pointing out that MLS and its' teams weren't the ones blocking Training Compensation and Solidarity Payments.
    I'm not mad at all, why would I be. The only ones with their boxers/panties in a bunch are the US Nat Team only/first fans. Also, this isn't the "ye olde competition" argument either. It happens to be one of the major points of emphasis that National Team fans hang their collective hats on. Yet now that MLS is improving, they get pissed off when 17 year old kids can't break into the 18 every week.
    WTF does this have to do with player development and movement?
     
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  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, I misread your original post. SKC have coaches for each age group, but now they have a giant academy I guess they need more staff.

    We've discussed the reasons for the USA's qualifying for the World Cup but it happens to most countries at some point. But this World Cup proves that the quality of your domestic league may not be reflected in your national team. And the USA's recent competitive record against Spain, England and Italy isn't that bad.

    Serie A and La Liga are obviously better than MLS because they have more money. John Terry who plays in the Championship makes as much money as the entire Houston payroll. But his club is $130 million in debt, losing $7 million a month and has failed to pay outstanding transfer fees.

    But it's a question of resources. $1.5 billion in TV money split between 20 clubs is far more than $90 million split between 24 to 28 clubs.

    I think there's an anti-MLS bias in the big 5 leagues. If Acosta and Adams had been snapped up by the big European teams they'd probably be much more complete players than they are today. So I agree with you there but it goes back to resources.

    But Alphonso Davies has come on leaps and bounds in the last year, as has Jonathan Lewis at NYCFC. And as you're probably sick of hearing, where in the same position as English clubs in the late eighties and early 90s when only a few clubs had academies.

    By the way, in reply to your earlier post, technical coaches is not standard across the world. In fact I'd say 99% of clubs don't have technical coaches. Certainly my club doesn't and I think we're more representative of clubs around the world as Man City or Real Madrid.

    Current MLS former academy players by club. Must try harder!!

    New York Red Bulls 10
    Toronto FC 7
    Real Salt Lake City 7
    Philadelphia Union 6
    Sporting Kansas City 5
    San Jose Earthquakes 5
    Montreal Impact 4
    Colorado Rapids 4
    Columbus Crew SC 2
    Chicago Fire 2
    Houston Dynamo 2
    Atlanta United FC 2
    New York City FC 2
    New England Revolution 0
    Los Angeles Galaxy 0
    D.C. United 0
    Portland Timbers 0
    Vancouver Whitecaps 0
    FC Dallas 0
    Seattle Sounders FC 0
    Orlando City SC 0
    Los Angeles FC 0
    Minnesota United FC 0
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Madness?
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I don't really understand what this chart is showing. FC Dallas had 6 former academy players on the field in the second half of Saturday (Acosta, Ulloa, Pomykal, Ferreira, Cannon, and Gonzalez).…………...and a 7th was in goal for their opponent (Sanchez).

    In fact, a third of FCD's first team roster is former academy players.

    One of the best young MLS academy products is Vancouver's Alphonso Davies. How can they be at 0?

    When we talk about MLS academies we have to do so knowing that the homegrown initiative didn't start until 2007. And actually, half of the current teams in the league didn't exist in 2007.

    Expectations seem to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of left field. As if in 10 years MLS academies are supposed to be churning out players like German, Spanish, French, Argentine, etc. academies. They have generations worth of a head start.

    I know we Americans aren't known for our patience, but this is what we need here. Most clubs are only now setting up USL/reserve teams and academy teams younger than their U16s. The academy U14s and below are really new, and those are often the critical ages (11-12ish).

    THe USMNT has had success in the past due to the enormity of the talent pool. We made the knockout stages of the World Cup in 1994 without actually having a league. And then for the first 10 years of MLS, which started in 1996, MLS clubs weren't allowed to promote academy players to their first teams. So prior to 2007, MLS academies were basically community outreach programs. We're just getting started here...…………………...
     
  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    This is a bit off-topic but related to development: what do posters think ATL/MLS will do with Almiron? and when?

    I'm interested to see if there is still a path from MLS success to the major leagues as Almiron has flat-out stated his intentions of playing in better leagues. Will ATL/MLS accede to his wishes? If not, how will this affect the decision to join MLS by future South American talents?

    If he does move on and becomes a major league UCL regular, how much credit for his development should MLS receive?
     
  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Atlanta sells Almiron after this season.................
    They already have a "succession" plan in place with Barco and Carleton.

    Its important when we talk about MLS as a developmental league (which MLS certainly doesn't view themselves as)..................that we also understand that they'll be "flipping" young, foreign players for profit. There will always be foreign players. Better that they're the young & exciting Almiron, Martinez, Barco types................than the roll call of mediocrity that Colorado and San Jose brought in this off-season.

    You're definitely right that if MLS establishes itself as a stepping stone for young South Americans, then more of those types of players will arrive. The same is true with regards to opportunities for young Americans. The more opportunities are provided to the Chris Durkins of the domestic scene, the more likely the next wave will be to sign with MLS. However, if there are a lot of high profile playing time problems............like we have with Andrew Carleton right now............then its less likely that the "next Andrew Carleton" signs with the league.

    As far as "credit" for Almiron's development, all the credit that matters to Atlanta is the trophy cabinet and the checking account. "Credit" is for columnists and fans to pontificate on..........................
     
  25. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think the succession plan will actually involve bringing in another South American player.

    MLS has an abysmal record right now with young domestic attackers. There are 2-3 who play regularly. Defenders and CM’s are a different story. Unless a young attacker comes from RSL, NYRB or Philly Union, I think they’d be stupid to sign with MLS. Go to Europe.
     

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