Change the Rule - Back to 4 Overtimes

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by WWC_Movement, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    Back in the day, in college soccer, these ladies could play 4 overtimes.
    There are too many penalty kick shootouts now in this tournament.
    Way too many of them.

    We are deciding too many games in penalty kicks.
    It seems like half the games are going to penalties in this tournament.
    That's just absurd.

    Change the Rule.
     
    mentor5959 repped this.
  2. sokarcrazy

    sokarcrazy Member

    Dec 19, 2005
    I would be a fan of 2 15 min periods instead of 10 min periods
     
  3. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Well it would be, if true. ;)

    By my unofficial count, it's 5 games out of 22 thus far that have gone to penalties. Notre Dame/A&M are in OT as I write this, so might be 6 of 23.
     
  4. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    Notre Dame vs. Texas A&M is in penalty kicks now.
    This is actually the 9th game to go to penalties, not the 6th.

    This is the 6th match today to go to penalty kicks, which is what I meant.
    We didn't see too many in the 1st round, but this might be a record for most penalty kick shootouts in any single day of an NCAA tournament round.
     
  5. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    You're right, I mistakenly only looked at the top half of the bracket. Of course, including the bottom half, the percentage going to penalties is even lower. But I take your point about there being a lot today. Just a fluke, most likely.
     
  6. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    If these games are allowed to go to a 4th overtime, then this problem is solved.
    The players don't have to worry about heat at this time of year.
     
  7. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    I don't see it as a problem. Penalties are fun! :) You'd still have them, even with 4 OTs.
     
  8. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    Agreed.
    But not 6 of them in one day.

    If you have 4 overtimes, you won't even get 6 penalty shootouts in 63 tournament matches in a single tournament.
     
  9. Glove Stinks

    Glove Stinks Member+

    Jan 20, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Penalties are the single dumbest way to decide a victor in the history of sports it’s not fun...it’s random. It’s bad for the team who advances and bad for the team that’s goes home. Baseball basketball and (in the playoffs) hockey all play til someone wins.. tell the girls whose season just ended their career that PKs are “&Fun”

    JOKE OF A WAY TO CROWN A WINNERR
     
    mentor5959 repped this.
  10. Glove Stinks

    Glove Stinks Member+

    Jan 20, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    And before you bring up my redass attitude I would feel the same way if my kids team advanced today
     
  11. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    Well said.
    This is an annoying way to end such a GREAT match on the field.
    There was a HISTORIC match today that took place.
    Baylor vs. USC.

    This match was intense, and dramatic. The penalty shootout was boring compared to the end of regulation, and the overtime sessions. What a crappy way to end such a historic match. This could have gone down as thee best 2nd round match in the history of the NCAA Women's Soccer tournament. That's how good the match was. And then a craptacular (as opposed to spectacular) penalty shootout.
     
  12. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    The alternative is playing until a goal is scored? In soccer? You might have a 200-minute game, or even longer. Soccer isn't basketball and it isn't hockey. It's too low-scoring to rely on a timely goal ending things.

    In all the years I've heard people complain about penalties, I've never heard a better alternative. Let's hear yours.

    Penalties are also not entirely random. There is a skill to controlling your emotions under pressure, skill in executing the technique, skill in a goalkeeper reading and reacting to a shot. Let Duke go against a D3 school in 10 penalty shootouts, and they'll win 7 or 8 times out of 10. It's not random.

    I agree it's an exceptionally cruel way to lose, especially as there is always at least one player who bears the burden for the loss. The pressure is brutal. But then, it's sports. It comes with the territory.

    And sorry, but they're fun. Let me know the next time you turn off the TV or walk out of the stadium when penalties are on.
     
    McSkillz, Soccerhunter, Gilmoy and 2 others repped this.
  13. Kazoo

    Kazoo Member

    Nov 1, 2015
    Let's not forget that the UCLA-Northwestern game was another OT game that could have gone to penalties. The NCAA should definitely start by increasing the first OT to 15 minutes, or maybe 1st and 2nd. Fatique plays a serious role once you get into overtimes, and so longer overtimes will certainly increase the odds of a run of play goal. If there is no winner after 30 minutes of play, as opposed to 20 now, THEN go to PKs.
     
  14. Glove Stinks

    Glove Stinks Member+

    Jan 20, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Maybe if they changed the rule some of these teams might try to play some offense instead of parking 9 in the box trying to get to 110. Hockey is a great example in the playoffs. Some of the be st games ever played are when the games to its 2nd or 3rd OT
    Your reason makes me think tie games in hoops should go to a game of horse. There is strategy in that, home run derby for the MLB. Yeah that would be fun
    If you need a fix then at least add time. Too many teams parking the bus against much better opponents hoping to get to PKs. Almost happened late last night when nw was even with UCLA despite being outshot 30 something to 2
    There is nothing beautiful about the game in pks
     
  15. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Let's face it, there is no perfect solution. Penalties are far from perfect, but they're the best solution anyone has come up with. Every alternative provided (and you haven't really provided one here, except adding 10 minutes, which - fine. There will still be penalties) is worse.

    Hockey is an entirely different game. You can't have unlimited OT until someone scores in soccer. You just can't.

    As for teams parking the bus to get to PKs, the 'much better opponents' already have 90 minutes of regulation plus 20 in OT to break them down. If they can't, it's on them.
     
    Soccerhunter and blissett repped this.
  16. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Yes, let's not forget things that could have happened but didn't. ;)
     
  17. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    #17 Soccerhunter, Nov 18, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
    I agree with Enzo. Soccer is a very different game.

    The amount of energy expended over 90 (or 110) minutes is greater than any other game. The other named sports (above) play much shorter times, (an hour or less) and have multiple time -outs to rest and hydrate whereas soccer is continuous. In terms of exertion, the only field, rink, or court game that is comparable is lacrosse, but even then they get more breaks with shorter time periods. And, in soccer, the better the quality of play and evenly matched opponents the lower the scoring.

    Playing more over time, would lead directly to more muscle cramping and potential to more injury (sprains and ACL or muscle tears) as muscle tone and nerve impulses become weaker and sudden demands for juking or acceleration to sprint speed lead to muscle tears and joint stress. Is this what we are asking for?

    Enzo speaks my mind when he says that while shoot-outs seem like an abrupt and arbitrary way to decide who moves on in a tournament, shoot-outs are still the best choice we have given the alternatives. (And, as he points out, it is riveting for fans! Beats a coin flip.)

    Also, I am pleased that the results are not posted as determining a winner of the match and officially the game is a draw and the record books will show this fact.
     
    blissett repped this.
  18. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Well the men did.
    Twice ( 1985,1982) finals matches went to 8 overtimes before somebody scored. They would have gone on forever.

    By 1992 Santa Clara and Indiana went 4 overtimes and they were declared co champions. Then shootouts were added.

    And remember the second 2 overtimes in the women's era were only 5 minutes.
     
  19. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    While this history is true, it brings to mind how much the game has progressed over the last 20 years or so. On the women's side the speed, athleticism, and technical demands have increased exponentially. This has resulted in way more injuries. I can remember when ACL tears in the women's game were exceedingly rare. And now, even with a tremendous focus and research on this problem, for instance, we continue to routinely see that essentially all high level college teams and virtually all pro teams lose one, two, or more players annually to this condition. Playing over times toward exhaustion will up this risk. This is a new era. More is demanded physically of the players.

    Using shots from the spot to decide who advances is rational - with arguably no better alternative in sight.
     
    blissett repped this.
  20. Germans4Allies4

    Jan 9, 2010
    Adding more OT is lunacy. The season is already too condensed playing 20-30 games in 2-3 months and, most weeks, 2 games in 3-4 days. OT should be eliminated in the regular season. Hopefully, the proposed expanded season reduces the injuries with more single game weeks and more rest/recovery time.
     
  21. WWC_Movement

    WWC_Movement Red Card

    Dec 10, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Papua New Guinea
    This game proves that 18-22 year old female athletes can handle 4 overtimes.
    Arguably the greatest game in the history of NCAA women's soccer.
    Bring back the OLD RULE. 4 overtimes, and each overtime is 15 minutes.
    150 minutes of soccer. They have proven before they can handle it.

     
  22. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    I don't think that one game "proves" anything. One has to look more broadly at statistics to get reliable data.
     
  23. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    In addition to other arguments made in various posts above, also consider this: If two teams have already played for 90 or 110 minutes, then it might be concluded that on that particular day they are evenly matched. A draw is warranted. So call it a draw and find a method of determining which team will advance in the tournament. Turns out that the kicks from the spot contest is pretty rational given the choices.

    In many tournaments, the decision as to who will advance is determined by an ordered list of tie breakers mostly of obscure statistics such as goals scored divided by goals allowed and other methods and ending up with a coin toss if all other statistics are equal. Talk about arbitrary!!! Such measures both force some teams to run up scores against weaker teams (at least to some arbitrary limit) or to coach to and set other statistical targets (such as goals allowed and bunkering to make that happen) depending on what the rules of the tournaments are. ...Again, is this not more arbitrary than kicks from the spot?

    In any case, either adding more overtimes until one team makes a defensive mistake, or a rebound takes a fortuitous bounce to one team for an easy score (again talk about arbitrary!) or by the 10th overtime at 3:00 in the morning incapacitation starts to happen and everyone realizes how stupid it is to continue with exhaustion and injury at hand (or perhaps more realistically the 4th overtime at 11:15 pm when the middle aged referee crew can no longer keep up with the play and things get out of control), is no less arbitrary than kicks from the spot. So as has been pointed out before, for those arguing for more overtimes, what limit do you propose? And if the game is still tied when reaching that arbitrary limit, which is better: coin toss or kicks? So why not do that after two ten minute overtimes? (And no golden goal which makes it even more arbitrary and does lead to more bunkering and trying to get to the kicks.)

    SO...... the more I think about this, the more I am convinced that there is no rational argument for adding more (or even any) over times. Call a draw a draw and decide what arbitrary method of choosing which team will advance you like best. (What I said to start....)
     
    blissett repped this.
  24. Enzo the Prince

    Sep 9, 2007
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    A friend and former teammate of mine, Michael Brady, played in that 1985 final. It was not soccer, and nothing that should ever be repeated anywhere on the face of the earth. 160 minutes! He says the reason they lost is he cramped up just as he was about to make a clearance, which directly led to the winning goal.

    These were championship finals. Imagine a team winning playing 160 minutes in the semifinal of College Cup, and then having to play 36 hours later. Unfair and dangerous. We still have a lot of nonsensical things in college soccer, but thankfully, no longer this possibility.
     
    Gilmoy and blissett repped this.
  25. Glove Stinks

    Glove Stinks Member+

    Jan 20, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    How bout a juggling contest First ball to hit the ground loses. Maybe a quick game of dodge ball. Or my original suggestion.... a game of horse
     

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