ChampionsWorld files for Chapter 11

Discussion in 'Business and Media' started by obie, Jan 19, 2005.

  1. denver_mugwamp

    denver_mugwamp New Member

    Feb 9, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Thanks for holding back, Roehl. We were going to give you the Mike Segroves award for fair play, but unfortunately Bill Archer retired it.
     
  2. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    I don't know, and I realize it's all idle speculation on my part.

    But based on what we know about CW, it seems to me that they wouldn't want to get MLS involved - like it or not, the draw of the two summer tours was marquee teams facing each other, and a Euro vs MLS matchup wouldn't have as much cachet. If ManU couldn't sell out all their games the second time around, an I don't know if MLS clubs could have drawn well enough to recover the appearance fees.

    But like I said, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but it wouldn't surprise me if CW only made a token attempt at getting MLS involved.
     
  3. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    Feel free to invest your billions into MLS so that the league can support a 2nd division, will ya? Nothing would make me happier than to see a viable MLS2, really.
     
  4. RedMenace

    RedMenace New Member

    Jun 20, 2004
    Palo Alto, CA
    Which other teams had problems with using mostly second-string players? The only one I know of is Manchester United. And, if you bothered to pay attention to the other games they played soon afterward back in England, they were using pretty much the same squad, even into the start of the EPL season. And they did fly a few more players out to the US as they recovered form injuries and the like. Also, in case you didn't notice, last year was pretty much their worst season in the EPL to date and this year was their worst start, partly due to injuries and Ferdinand's suspension.

    I don't think this was the fault of Champions World, or even the fault of Man U. per se. It was just bad luck: between Euro 2004, the Olympics, injuries, players that hadn't been rested in months, etc., there just didn't happen to be many of their preferred players available at that time, but it wasn't just CW. They were struggling in EPL matches for the first month or so of the season, and Eagles, Miller, etc. were still getting plenty of playing time. It just so happened that it got really bad during the off-season and the CW tour. I've seen plenty of other games both this season and last that had far from their normal preferred eleven. Plenty of games with no Giggs, no van Nistelrooy, no Ronaldo, no Scholes, no Saha, no Ferdinand, etc.

    It wasn't about screwing the dumb Americans.
     
  5. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    Really? Are you sure?

    I think when we thought we were getting Real Madrid we were thinking of having the all star game at the Razor but when they bailed that plan was scrapped and it went to RFK instead.
     
  6. RedMenace

    RedMenace New Member

    Jun 20, 2004
    Palo Alto, CA
    Yes, Man U. was having personnel problems, but those problems started well before Champions World and didn't end until quite a bit later, which you'd know if you bothered to follow Man U. (I don't blame anyone for not following them, just for criticizing them without looking into it first, then for criticizing others for the failings of just one team.) Their first really strong showing wasn't until Liverpool in late September, 5 or 6 weeks into the season and a couple months after they visited the US - they were STILL having problems putting a strong squad together! That didn't have anything to do with Champions World at all. Yeah, I criticized them at the time, saying I'd only forgive them if they kept playing the "unknown" squad back in Europe. They did. I stopped criticizing them.
    The other teams fielded good squads with lots of big-name players. Here's Chelsea's for the match I saw vs. Celtic:

    Cuiducini (Cech, 46)
    Johnson
    Bridge (Robben, 46)
    Terry
    Huth (Babayaro, 46)
    Smertin
    Geremi
    Parker (Lampard, 46)
    Mutu (Kezman, 46)
    Cole (Makalele, 46)
    Gudjohnsen (Ferreira, 70)

    Score: Chelsea 4 (Smertin, Gudjonson, Kezman x2), Celtic 2 (Beattie x2)

    Yeah, bunch of 4th-string players I've never heard of... :p It was a good game, I'm glad I went, and I'll go again (if there's a game anywhere convenient for me).

    Also, while I freely admit the Man U roster vs. Bayern Munich in Chicago was crap, they did a lot better in their other games, such as vs. Milan, where the players included Tim Howard, Gary Neville, Wes Brown, Phil Neville, Mikhael Silvestre, Jonathan Spector (OK, young and unknown, but a US player who made a fairly impressive debut on the US Men's Team since then), Ryan Giggs, Roy Keane, Paul Scholes, Erik Djemba-Djemba, David Bellion, Diego Forlan, and Alan Smith (along with Richardson, Eagles, and Bardsley).
     
  7. RedMenace

    RedMenace New Member

    Jun 20, 2004
    Palo Alto, CA
    There is USL (United Soccer Leagues), though that's not too many cities either (and shrinking/struggling). Partly there's not so much demand, partly it's true, MLS and USL don't work well with each other. It would help if they either partnered in a meaningful and helpful way, or one were replaced by the other. In the long run, probably MLS will expand to the point that USL will shrivel up and die (other than the PDL, I mean professional divisions only).
     
  8. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's 12 teams man. At this point who gets to be in the league is wide open. If someone with money wanted a Hartford team, you'd get it. There's no guarentee a second division would be in your town either. MLS isn't a charity. It can't just go and open teams all over the country just to make people like you happy. It takes a market with someone willing to invest to make it happen.

    I live in the Philadelphia area and like you I have two teams within two hours of me. The Metro to the north and DC to the south. It is a pain to drive two hours for a game. I know. I also watch a lot of soccer from England, Italy, and Spain, go to CW games, and MLS should have a team in Philly. It doesn't because there is no investor. Yet, I still support MLS. I'll go to an occasional game and for about $70 I can watch almost every single MLS game on TV. Its a start.

    When there are 16-20 teams and another 12 or so investors ready to join up, we can talk about a second division. Also, if you would boycot the playoffs, you'd really be missing out. Over the last few years, some of the best soccer I have watched was from MLS playoff games.
     
  9. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    In any case, with no continental tournament places to play for and no relagation, and considering the size of the country, a divisional system and playoffs are a must.

    Plus, if you boycotted all playoffs, you'd also be missing the Brazilian championship and the knockout stage of the Champions League.
     
  10. n4100

    n4100 Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Philadelphia
    Agreed. I mean, I live in Philly too, but right now, we don't have a Sugar Daddy to bring a team in, and for that matter, I don't imagine that Hartford does either.

    I can't say I've been to an MLS game. I admit it. Why I work every weekend, except 2 a year. One being in the winter (no MLS), the other being around the 4th of July. Last year, I was in Chicago and they weren't at home, and the other time, the Metros weren't at home. Sorry, I can't attend matches. That said, though I don't have a favorite team (Chicago/DC would be my two choices), I do watch whatever game is on ESPN2 every weekend (the joy of working in a restaurant that has German owners who love soccer), and now that I have FSW, games on that as well.

    I won't say the MLS hasn't reached out to me. Sorry, I was born in 78, other than being a toddler for the last years of the NASL, where was a league for me to watch when I was playing in the late 80s/early 90s? There wasn't. Sure enough, MLS is now around, and the fact that there is even a league is more than I had as a kid. I appreciate it. Oh sure, I've seen quality in the US league, but I've also had the pleasure, just last week of seeing Arsenal away at Bolton actually in the Reebok Stadium. I was such a terrible game, I think MLS would have been embarrassed.

    Euro-games aren't the be-all-end-all.

    Back to the CW topic though, if it only tried to do the tours on NON-championship years, it may have more success with having first teamers play. Odd years, forget the even ones when the Euro teams will lose their players to the WC or EC. I enjoyed the 3 games I went to, mostly because I rooted against ManU all three games.
     
  11. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Yes, it was. Perhaps not intentionally, but ignorance is no defense of the law. Put up Giggs & Ruud posters everywhere, hype hell out of the game, charge $80 for a good seat, you damn well better make a real game out of it.

    Fergie ain't that stupid. He had to know the context of how this game was marketed. He didn't care, that's all.
     
  12. Siegen

    Siegen New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Boise, Idaho

    Do you attended non-MLS and CW games in your area? How close is UConn? They have pretty good teams I hear.

    Hell, high school soccer would have meaningful games. That was one of your other arguements.

    It seems to me you just want Man U to move to Hartford. No, wait! Brasil should move their training facilities and all their friendlies and qualifiers to Hartford. That is what soccer owes you.
     
  13. Stephen1164

    Stephen1164 New Member

    Jul 7, 2003
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its great we have so many thoughts on Championsworld, but when it comes down to it, it's still Soccer and somethings most people never will see in their life time. I'll be in line as soon as Tickets go on sale.
     
  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    You can't really call the knockout phase of the Champions League a 'playoff'. Most teams haven't played each other earlier in the competition, unlike what is typically the case in a league with a playoff structure.
     
  15. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    That's nonsense. I doubt he had any control over how the game was marketed. And anyway, with the European Championships and Copa America having recently finished, and the Olympics about to start, you can hardly blame Man Utd for fielding weakened teams. Blame ChampionsWorld - who should have known better - but blaming Man Uts is harsh.
     
  16. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    John, I'll agree with you on all your previous posts - including the Polish hotties - except this one. Fergie was quite apologetic about the game. He was hamstrung by the Euro'04, the Olympics and Copa America and a slew of injuries and Bayern looked like crap under a new coach (and an American to boot!).

    But, if Champ World is in a situation where it incurred $2M in losses while generating over $25M in revenues, then it's capable of returning with ease.

    And, among other conditions, it may come in with a revamped format and a gentleman's agreement that the big names will not be sitting on the bench.

    The deal, btw, is also hard for the Euros to turn down. It looks like they're getting about $1M per game + local (international?) TV rights, which can conceivably exceed their gate revenues/guarantee.

    So, unless the attendance figures dip below 40K, the Champ World should survive for a long time to come.
     
  17. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Then don't agree to play the game. The injuries, he didn't know ahead of time (although could have predicted, to an extent, because a few people are always nicked up), but the other stuff he did.

    Yep.

    Not to mention a brand-building exercise in the world's richest consumer marketplace.

    However, the coaching staff & business people have gotta be in sync on this. Champs World will not survive long term playing the typical summer friendly, i.e. a warm-up match wherein nobody really gets bothered if the stars don't play and if the tackling is nonexistent. There's gotta be a bite to the proceedings (maybe like in Charity Shield games?) and liberal playing time for the stars. I don't know how to enforce it, but I do know that no promoter will survive many debacles like Bayern Munich - Man U. The distaste from those who attended was -- and is -- extreme.
     
  18. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My defense of a playoff system with an unbalanced schedule would be that even though you have played the teams you've faced before, you've played a different set of teams so tyour individual records are not necessarily indicative of the quality of your play.

    If you had a 16 team league, with 4 divisions and an unbalanced schedule (play twice against the teams in the other three divisions and 4 times against the teams in your own division), it's not a totally unreasonable system to have the four division winners meet in a playoff as they've all faced different schedules.

    It also randoms things up slightly, which would allow a lesser team to win the whole thing a little more often, and if winning brings significant revenues, the system may do a more effective job of circulating the revenues throughout the league rather than concentrating them within a few teams for long stretches of time.
     
  19. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    What a truly terrible construction! I congratulate you, that is so painful that it will likely stick. I will be sure that your contribution is noted in future editions of the O.E.D.
     
  20. penubly

    penubly Member

    Feb 11, 2002
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Anyone who expected something else is either uninformed or stupid. Look, the stars were tired from the previous season, not to mention Euro 2004, and anyone with any sense knew that when they bought the tickets.

    I got to see Khan in a penalty shoot-out, most of the Bayern first team, Owen Hargreaves/J Spector (local boys, as in from N. America), and a mediocre match between two of the biggest clubs in Europe.

    Don't bitch, I came all the way from Houston! :eek:

    They sure as hell aren't coming down here to play in the middle of summer!!

    Oh, and BTW the stories I tell my grandkids will probably be about more important things.
     
  21. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    Actually I think it is overblown.
     
  22. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    "Typically" doesn't mean "by definition" of course. A playoff is any time two teams play a set of games to eliminate the loser after playing a pre-determined schedule and are picked to play each other by the virtue of their standings (or in the case of CL, a round robin schedule plus a draw).

    Look at the English promotion-relegation playoffs for example - you have one side (from the higher division) who hasn't met the other 3 opponents all year.

    That's really besides the point though. The original poster's claim was that soccer championships can only be decided by a single table, home-and-away schedule and anything else goes against the spirit of the game. Should be news to Brazilians.
     
  23. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Higher league teams don't participate in the English promotion playoffs. It's either two or three straight up with the last spot going to the winner of a playoff between the next four placed teams in that league. The relegated teams go straight down with no chance to save themselves short of a promoted team not meeting the next division's requirements.
     
  24. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why are you, in New York City, pontificating to a Chicagoan about something that happened in Chicago?

    I'm just making the point, if JohnR says it was a PR debacle, he's there, so he's the expert. Not you, not me.
     
  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I was going to appeal the authority of the Chicago Fire board thread on this game, but I see that bigsoccer.com has purged its old threads.

    It was an amusing thread.
     

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