Champions of Europe - Pre-Season Thread 2019 [R]

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by dcc134, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I wonder how much Clyne is kicking himself for going out on loan - he'd have a CL winner's medal now if he hadn't done that.
     
    dcc134 repped this.
  2. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know. Look at Sturridge the year before. Look at what Origi did this year. If I'm a fringe player, would there be a better place to go to work everyday? I'd be riding the train as long as I could.

    Go to work with the European Champions everyday. Stay in shape and be ready for your opportunity. We may not need 10 games out of Clyne (or Lallana or Shaq) but if they can give us that and not be a dickhead about not playing, that can be the difference across the season.
     
  3. dcc134

    dcc134 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    May 15, 2000
    Hummelstown, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The sharpness of the squad was impressive. They've only been in camp 5 days and they already look sharp and fit. They mean business again this year.
     
  4. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    #104 Samarkand, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    Players don’t get to choose to go on loan, it’s the club.

    Sometimes a club will come asking for a player and the parent club will say yes, no or improve your offer.

    Other times the parent club will approach another club and say, here’s X and the terms are as follows. But that decision is the club’s. But once the club says go, you go.

    Whoever approaches whom, the horse trading is around the fee, appearances and wages with penalty clauses if the player doesn’t appear in X number of games.

    It doesn’t happen that a player says, “I’m not getting a game, I’m going out on loan”.

    Clyne going out on loan was Klopp saying - at the time - we’re good in defense and Clyne needs playing time, playing time we can’t offer him. The fact that we were later caught out with injuries was the law of Sod.

    Plus, was Clyne on the CL squad submitted after Christmas? I don’t think he was.


    ETA: He wasn’t on the squad list, but that was submitted after he went out on loan. Nevertheless the original point - that he didn’t decide, Liverpool did - stands.
     
  5. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    he's a professional athlete not a damn slave. Of course he gets to agree to a loan deal.
     
    LiverpoolFanatic repped this.
  6. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    You've obviously forgotten the Italian pkayer we had a few years back who refused a club-agreed transfer to Palace (I can't remember his name!) because he wanted to stay and fight for a place.
     
  7. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    Sorry, just not how it works.

    Stuff like this is written into contracts and you go where the club says. Sure, you might talk the parent club around now and again, but the parent club decides. If the player objects and refuses, it can and often is viewed as a breach of contract which then allows the player to be sold without any loyalty bonus payments. Or fined. Or discipline in some fashion.

    Junior players are loaned out with a view to getting them playing time and it’s the same with senior players except there’s more likely to be consultation. As in, “Ryan you’re going on loan to Rangers for the season, see ya in May” whereas for Clyne it would have been something like “Nat, we don’t see many minutes for you for the rest of the season and we want you to go out on loan. Bournemouth and Southampton are in for you, which would you prefer?”

    Now Clyne could refuse, but then he’s in the Sakho position, training with the U21s and permanently done with he club.

    It could also have been that his agent approached the club and said, “Nat needs playing time, how about a loan?” The problem with that approach is that the club can view it as an incentive to renegotiate the contract or to lose loyalty bonuses, etc. A player approaching the club looking to go out on loan is opening himself up to too many contract and payment liabilities.

    Seeing as Clyne is back with the team, he took the Origi approach, went where he was told, and played the dutiful employee. Now he has a chance to establish himself anew or be transferred and not lose the loyalty bonuses.

    But no way, no how did he rock up to Melwood one day and say, “Hey, Juergen, boss, I’ve lined up a loan to Bournemouth for the rest of the season, seeing as I’m getting f*ck all playing time around here.”

    Loans are arranged by the club and absent compelling reasons, you go.
     
  8. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I couldn't be botheref explaining how full of crap that is.
     
    dcc134 repped this.
  9. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    #109 Samarkand, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    Great.

    I, for one, am thankful.
     
  10. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I'll make it brief

    International transfers (including loans) of professional footballers are processed through the FIFA International Transfer Matching System (ITMS)6 in accordance with the FIFA Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players (RSTP) – a ground-breaking technological and regulatory development that has revolutionised how such transfers are done.

    Art. 10.1 of the RSTP confirms that a professional may be loaned to another club on the basis of a written agreement between him and the clubs concerned

    https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/s...-international-loan-regulations-the-wild-west
     
    LiverpoolFanatic and soccershaggy repped this.
  11. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Fabio Borini .... refused a transfer from LFC to QPR (not Palace as I said).

    players are not chattels, they are human beings.
     
  12. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    Yes, he did. Fabio Borini refused a transfer (2 of them, I think), which is not a loan, and is subject to a whole other negotiating process. And we were, or at least I was, talking about loans. However, as we're talking about Borini, let's dig a little.

    Liverpool refused him to loan to Sunderland a second time (and also to QPR, I think, but subject to googling which I can't be arsed to do). He had refused a transfer to Sunderland and QPR in the Aug '14 window, so Sunderland tried to take him on loan. Liverpool refused.

    They refused to loan him when the whole world knew he was surplus to requirements on Merseyside. That's what clubs can do.

    That he refused a transfer is perhaps unusual, but certainly not unheard of, as players sometimes are unable to reach personal terms with the intended club and revert to the parent club. FWIW, having refused to go to Sunderland or QPR, Liverpool kept him and played him sparingly, only in the event of injuries. By season's end, he had been reduced to training with the reserves and U23s, wasn't taken on the pre-season tour and told to stay training at Melwood and his relationship with Rodgers was done. Again, that's what clubs do to players who don't play by their rules and wishes.

    But, as I have said, we're talking about loans here and not transfers. Mamadou Sakho, to use a more recent example, was in Klopp's bad books and was lined up to be sent out on loan in Aug '16 to Besiktas and/or Stoke. He refused and wanted to stay to repair his relationship with Klopp and fight for his place. The club froze him out, he wasn't within a mile of first team training at any stage. Then Liverpool hardened their position during the first half of the season and in January '17, they refused to allow him out on loan to Southampton, but did sell him to Crystal Palace. Again, showing the difference between the attitude to, and control of, loans and transfers.

    Even with Clyne, when Fulham realized they were in the middle of a relegation dogfight as early as October last season, they enquired about Clyne on loan which was not a bad move as he was no where near the first team then. Liverpool refused. They decided that Clyne was going nowhere, not that early in the season. Again, there was little input from the player himself. Cardiff later enquired (I said Southampton in a previous post) and Clyne's choice was between them and Bournemouth, with Liverpool favoring Bournemouth.

    The claim that players are not chattel is sweet and all, but in matters of employment, loans and transfers, the clubs usually hold most of the cards. Sure there are exceptions for the Messis, Ronaldos and Salahs of this world, but by and large, especially when it comes to loans, the player does what the club says. Your contract might have a clause about being allowed to refuse loans, such as Sakho's, but as he found out, you refuse at your own peril. At the end of the day, your contract is an employment contract and if your company sends you to Tulsa, OK to join Chandler Bing, you go.

    The politics and negotiations surrounding loans are substantially different to those concerning transfers. The club controls the loan process, the transfer process is much more collaborative. The general rule of thumb is that young players, looking to establish themselves - Kent, Woodburn, Wilson - go on loan where the parent club says, because the parent club will have scouted the destination club for fit; mature or established players - e.g. Clyne, Origi, Joe Hart under Guardiola - will usually be offered a choice of clubs (assuming there's more than one asking) and then go.
     
  13. Suss

    Suss Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Klopp not changing much from the first friendly. Lovren replaces Johnston. Liam Millar replaces the injured Glatzel, and Mignolet will play the full 90 because the goalkeeper Jaros got hurt.

    1st half
    Mignolet
    Clyne Phillips Lovren Lorouci
    Lallana
    Ox Milner
    Wilson Brewster Kent​
    2nd half
    Mignolet
    Hoever Matip Gomez Lewis
    Fabinho
    Woodburn Jones
    Millar Origi Duncan​
     
  14. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    oh. so your point is "a player refusing a loan puts his club position in peril".

    of course they do. nobody said otherwise!

    but that is 100% not the same as

    (which nobody said) and not the same as

    (most of that about loyalty bonuses etc is BS btw)
     
  15. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC

    Lallana as holding CM again? hmmm ... wonder if they're trying to reinvent him?
     
  16. Suss

    Suss Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Not sure that’s where he will play, but that’s where he did last time, and he’s playing with Ox and Milner again. The other candidates to play that role (Henderson and Gini) returned yesterday but aren’t playing today.
     
  17. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    true ... that role deffo doesn't fit his skill set imo. more likely for Millie of that group to be the holder.
     
  18. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    I thought the original point was that Clyne made a huge mistake going out on loan to Bournemouth rather than staying and winning a CL medal?

    My point, then and now, was that Clyne didn’t make the decision to go on loan to Bournemouth, the club did.
     
    el-capitano repped this.
  19. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    fairy nuff, mate. I don't want to develop a long-running "Sam vs Sam" debate. :)
     
    el-capitano repped this.
  20. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member

    May 28, 2001
    We could ask for our own sub-forum?
     
    el-capitano repped this.
  21. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    that's what Hobo and Zaq need. :)
     
    el-capitano and soccershaggy repped this.
  22. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Mille scores 1-0

    Mille scores again (pen) 2-0
     
  23. Suss

    Suss Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    2-0.

    Milner scores with a shot from outside that was deflected in. Maybe an own goal.

    Brewster with a brilliant touch to find Kent who is fouled for a penalty. Milner scorer again. Brewster looking like Firmino there.
     
  24. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    #124 SamScouse, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    you got the lineup correct, Suss ....

    Liverpool Echo:
    Lallana's New Role
    The England international looks to be operating in a deep-lying midfield role. Could this be another Klopp project?
     
  25. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Bradford score, but offside.
     

Share This Page