Lukaku and Matic certainly qualify as "elite". Unless "elite" means best in the world at their position, in which case then only De Gea qualifies.
When I think elite I consider who would make it into a worldwide squad of 23. (will do a separate thread about this over the weekend)
I agree and have said that there was top tier/elite talent across that team. Nevertheless, it was still known primarily for it's brawn, a workmanlike team (in the typical Mourinho mould), rather than a finesse one, with pretty attacking play. And the presence of stars did not alter that philosophy (or perception of the team for me) in the least...
The presence of elite talent made them much better. Style of play is one thing. Quality of player and execution is another. You're 100% correct when you say Jose gets more out of less. Its a good thing we dont have to worry about the less part too much as far as potential transfers and funds.
Fair enough. We all get to understand "elite" any way we want but I submit to you that that's an unduly restrictive way to look at it. Thinking about which forwards on the planet would make an all-world squad of 23 you'd have to say Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Suarez, Lewandowski and Ibrahimovic. But what about Kane, Aguero, Lukaku and Hazard? What about Griezmann? They can't all fit in a squad of 23, but surely they are (I realize you dismiss Ibra) "elite" forwards. At this point we have to concede that Harry Kane is an elite footballer, even if he doesn't play for an elite club. We may even have to concede that Jesus and Mbappe are "elite" even if they're perhaps still a couple of months away from being considered obvious elite footballers. I hope there's no question in your mind that Aguero and Hazard are "elite". There's certainly no question that Griezmann is elite. Lukaku, think what you want, but he was one of the scorers in England last season playing for a club that very far from being elite, he's done it for years in England and he's already gotten off to a great start with United. Of course he would never displace Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar or Suarez, but he's one of the top strikers on the planet and clearly an elite footballer. I submit to you that restricting what an "elite" footballer is to only those who would be selected for the all-world 23 squad is ridiculously restrictive. However, I don't have a better definition to give you as defining elite is as hopeless as defining beauty.
That's why with the team as is, I would love if we could go big for a right side forward at least (possibly a couple of FBs as well). I agree that at the moment we only have Dave and Pogba who are in the very top echelon, but I believe that in Bailly, Martial and Rashford alone, we've got talent f that same level in waiting potentially. Shaw could be added to that list, provided he regains his prior leg break level. In practically all other positions, the talent level is solid to top. Good enough in time to make United contenders, with Jose at the helm.
It is restrictive by design as it forces you to make the tough comparisons and decisions you would otherwise look to dodge. You will hate the further restrictions involved!
I've got my list of 23. Based it off a 4-2-3-1, so we could pick more offensive minded and not leave as many of them off the squad. Curious as to what the "restrictions" will be about though...
I can appreciate that logic and concede that it's better than any definition I can come up with, but it's still absurdly arbitrary. Consider this. Surely no one would deny that Neuer, De Gea, Courtois, Oblak and Buffon are all "elite" keepers. But no squad of 23 would ever carry 5 keepers, so in your world at least 2 of those of keepers would suddenly no longer be "elite" keepers. And that just can't be. All 5 of those keepers are elite keepers, maybe a few others I'm not thinking of right now, but at least those 5. That's not to say that an "elite" footballer "must be all-world squad of 23" is irrational, but it is absurdly arbitrary and in the end not particularly useful. But "elite" is just a word and each of us is free to use words as we wish but if the words we choose have an arbitrary meaning so that, for example, we could no longer consider a keeper like Buffon or Courtois as an elite keeper we no longer have a useful frame of reference for making informed judgments about the quality of the contributions that individual players make to their squads. Matic may not make an all-world 23 but he was an instrumental part of Chelsea's two EPL trophy-winning squads and so far has had a massive influence on United, who in the early days of the season have taken the pole position for the EPL trophy. Matic, undeniably, is an elite footballer -- though by no means the one who grabs media attention for himself or puts up incredible numbers. He just gets the job done, quietly and efficiently, and his clubs win trophies.
Courtois and Buffon have dropped a level in recent seasons for that solves your problem. As for Matic he might be key to a team when used correctly in a system but that does not automatically make him an elite player in comparison to his peers in the same position/role. The best counterpoint to use as an example here is a player like Fletcher. When fit he was crucial to our play for several seasons but if you look at him as an individual and outside of how we used him he would not make any lists. Another example would be Park (particularly how he facilitated Ronaldo).
It's still not hard at all to come up with a list of 40-50 players in world football, who can be considered "elite", ie the best the game has to offer in one way, form or fashion. The trick in this particularly exercise is to come up with a squad, 22-23 of the best ones. Pretty easy in some positions, but there is definitely a source for solid debates in quite a few spots...
Dude, you're killing me. Courtois and Buffon are elite keepers. Probably Lloris as well. Real fans might say Navas too. You're the one who has a problem in dealing with the fact that there are more elite keepers on the planet than could be accommodated in an all-world 23 squad. The facts just don't fit your theory, although in the end this is just a word game. Maybe we're living in a kind of golden age of elite keepers, but whether that's the case or not there are definitely more than 3 elite keepers on the planet right now. We can say the same for forwards and midfielders. Defenders, possibly not. Fletcher was no Matic. And even if you take the 3-4 months in the 08-09 season when Darren was at his peak, his play then was a shadow of Nemanja's play over the last 3-4 years. The role Matic plays isn't particularly glamorous, but it is vital and he's still one of the best on the planet in that role. The same could never have been said of Fletcher.
United and Pool fans can expect a big police presence next week in Moscow. www.bbc.com/sport/football/41361212
Champions League last 16 draw:Juventus vs. SpursBasel vs. Man CityPorto vs. LiverpoolSevilla vs. Man UtdReal Madrid vs. PSGShakhtar vs. RomaChelsea vs. BarcelonaBayern vs. Beşiktaş#UCLdraw pic.twitter.com/2r8wuJtlbe— Football Tweet ⚽ (@Football__Tweet) December 11, 2017
We can't complain indeed: United really should get the measure of Sevilla. That Real vs PSG matchup is straight fire. Should be interesting to see how Chelsea and Tottenham do in their respective ties.
Some interesting stats, 0 - Lionel Messi has faced Chelsea eight times without scoring a single goal from 29 shots; his worst record against a single club during his career. Hex. #UCLDraw pic.twitter.com/PDe4GOndTQ— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) December 11, 2017 6 - Barcelona have progressed from six of their last seven Champions League knockout ties against English opposition - the exception was against Chelsea in the semi-final in 2011/12. History. #UCLDraw— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) December 11, 2017 5 - Juventus have been eliminated in each of their last five knockout ties with English teams in Europe. Stronghold. #UCLDraw (via @OptaPaolo)— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) December 11, 2017
Can English teams survive the knockout stage of the CL? www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2018/feb/12/champions-league-winter-break-england-premier-league