CCL: Kansas City at CAI (Wed March 6th, 7:00PM CST) [R]

Discussion in 'Sporting Kansas City' started by Buzz Killington, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. Formulaic

    Formulaic Member

    Jul 6, 2011
    Kansas City
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What a disaster. Vermes personnel decisions have been questionable for as long as I have paid attention, but I have never seen anything as bad as this last week. We are fortunate to be down only one goal. we completely botched both games in the worst possible way.

    I am so ********ing irritated... I don't even know what else to say
     
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  2. BenDover

    BenDover BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 4, 2010
    Olathe, KS
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok, now it has become crystal clear why PV played the starting 11 against LAFC. Ouch, where was all that depth people were talking about?
     
  3. Spassapparat

    Spassapparat Member

    SKC/Werder Bremen
    May 14, 2017
    I guess thats how opinions can differ. To me, he was the only one who showed any offensive spark in a very bad SKC side. Certainly not good enough to compete for a starting position, but the only of the non-starters who looked like he deserved minutes.

    Salloi is an idiot. If trying to get himself thrown off twice within 5 minutes is how he reacts to temporarily losing his starting spot, then he will probably not get that starting spot back.

    This field might be the worst field I've ever seen professional soccer played on that was not compromised by weather conditions. This being said, I feel like SKC did not play to the conditions. If the ball keeps getting stuck, crisp passing out of the back is not gonna be possible, and if the opponents press, then turnovers are likely. 90% of CAI's chances were turnovers in our half. Although that's not sporting style, I would've like way more long passes on this field.
    On the other side of the field, the same thing applies. If balls keep getting stuck, pressure the defenders. There was almost zero pressing from sporting happening.
     
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  4. kcfooty

    kcfooty Member

    Feb 16, 2011
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even so, I'd rather have lost 4-0 at LA and won 2-0 here. Then run a split squad on the weekend and the another split squad to finish this series. But alas, that's a fool's fancy.

    Now, Peter will trot out the first team both this weekend for the home opener less Roger (they are rested!) and for next week (must win).

    I wonder when Besler and Ilie get to rest?
     
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  5. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And what woulda happened if we lost 4-0 in LA and then still loss 2-1 tonight?
     
  6. lukeD

    lukeD Member

    Jul 7, 2011
    Olathe
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Croizet is here on a DP contract and did nothing. He should be impacting the game like Russell or Gerso did, who instantly changed the match.
    See Matt Doyle's tweet for Croizets first half passing. Either incomplete or backwards.



    Wallace was surprisingly bad in posesion. Rowe invisible. Hurtado is speed only. The new depth was not quality depth.

    Please stop complaining about the pitch. I've seen plenty academy matches on turf and those kids handle it just fine.
     
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  7. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the type of turf and what happens to it. There's good turf and there's bad turf, this certainly appeared to be bad turf from what I saw of the game.
     
  8. Formulaic

    Formulaic Member

    Jul 6, 2011
    Kansas City
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not op but its still the same imo. Goal differential in the league is the least of my worries. We lost in la. It may as well have been 20-0. Tonight's game was a knockout. And on the road when goals count "extra". If we put on our best 11 after they rested over the weekend and they still lost in Panama so be it.

    I don't think we should have ever been playing for a win in Los Angeles. He should have put out the B-Team, put 10 men behind the ball, and played for a point. Worst case we have zero points and are as fresh as possible a team for CCL. Or maybe we get the point since MLS teams are generaly terrible at breaking a bunker. But unfortunately vermes is just terrible at changing strategy/adapting to the conditions.
     
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  9. kcfooty

    kcfooty Member

    Feb 16, 2011
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure a rested first team would have lost 2-1 tonight. But to answer your question, we are in almost exactly the same boat, except we would have a rested second team to play this weekend and an equally rested first team to play next week. Or mixed squad for the weekend and the first team for the must-win return CCL leg.

    Bottom line for me... I keep falling for the talk of how things are going to change and they really don't. I think when Peter gets down to it, his gut instinct is to go for the most optimistic and perfect outcome. Yes, if the first team wins in LA, it's a 6-pointer in the west. And yes, if we sneak a goal and and a draw away with the second team, it leaves the first team rested for the home opener and us looking good to advance in the CCL. But it also meant that everyone could take this ridiculous road trip that started two weekends ago with a flight to New Mexico, play three games in 8 days straight out of the off-season with no "fatigue" and no injuries, and THEN have the second team pull off a decent result in *their* first game of the year away in Central America. It was a fantasy. Reality is Besler and Ilie have 360+ minutes in 14 days, Fontas is hurt, we've lost the 6-pointer, and we have to win at home to stay in the CCL.

    I need to quit falling for the talk.
     
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  10. kcscsupporter

    kcscsupporter Member+

    Apr 17, 2002
    D17
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    any anytime those "vermes to the nats" rumors start up again, all anyone should need to know is summed up in these last two games about why he'd be terrible for the national team.
     
  11. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    National teams are tactically simple, and playing the first 11 all the time is the norm. Vermes would give the team an identity. He'd be good at that. hell, he's good at this, but this was not his best week.
     
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  12. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    They both ceded and completely owned the midfield against us. It's not a common sight: A team that controls 70 percent of possession, outpassed them by 85 to 65 percent, yet was outshot 18 to 11 (7-4 if considering SOG).
    They knew exactly what they were about. That's usually our gig, but we looked lost.
    The map on Croizet makes a good point, as does the reaction to him putting in a shift. IMO, both were accurate. Croizet was working hard, but we didn't really have a point to what we were doing in attack and so he looked like crap. harding working crap, though.
    It was a really odd outing for us. You've got to credit them, the way they plugged the passing lanes (taking advantage of a crap field) was impressive. Look at their stats just for interceptions. they were taking balls away from us on every inch of that field.
    We dominated the stats, as we do, but not in the normal places.
    Which brings me to my main point: We need to talk about Rowe.
    Rowe had, IMO, one moment when I saw a player of real quality. but it was not a happy sight because it showed that he is not going to be an SKC player. it was in a moment of transition, when he could just get out and run on a counter. His head was up, he was at full speed and his ball to Salloi was brilliant. It was the sort of thing, in a vacuum, we were missing all night. But it wasn't an SKC play. It wasn't just last night, but so far every time we've seen him. He's not a more polished attacking option/lighter defensive option than Roger. He's a guy who creates calm in a jailbreak. Put him into our more controlled style of play and he looks like a square peg. It's not just last night, it's been in every appearance. His activity maps are way more random than anyone else we play. His actions have a lot of space between them. He's hunting for a space to exploit. He's not playing the system.
    We play the system. It makes him look as if he's dragging us backwards when he plays. Everyone and every movement in our possession looks as if it has a point, it's all an inside joke, but Rowe clearly does not get it. He's laughing at the wrong times, his punch lines are non-sequiturs.
    Last year we had a brilliant spell when it looked as if, for a couple road games, we'd developed a plan b, a sit back, absorb and counter philosophy for games when we were short or tired or whatever. Maybe he fits brilliantly into that plan, but when we go out and play like we did last night, play the SKC way, he's a bad fit.
    Wallace was disappointing for a different reason. We are going to run Seth into the ground this year, aren't we? He wasn't stepping into the balls played to him, he never adjusted to that, so they kept picking off the passes that would have seen him break into the attack. As such, he was a non-entity.
    Salloi was lucky not to get a red for that shove. We've all seen it happen. His frustration was with himself. he was playing cute backheels and no looks all nightm, and they they weren't working. he had one shot and it was from 30 and it was blocked before it got 2 feet off his foot
    Looking at the numbers, Barath's distribution wasn't bad. He was crazy active. He gave up the 3g option spot on their first goal, so that was less than ideal. Okay, I actually feel better about Zendejas than I have after this game. His footwork was pretty decent. He needs games and polish, but he can play in our system pretty well.
    In the end, they were crazy fast and very much on point. We were disjointed, as a team that hadn't played yet would be.
    But this wasn't a disaster result.
     
  13. Spassapparat

    Spassapparat Member

    SKC/Werder Bremen
    May 14, 2017

    With regards to the pitch, if what you are saying is that this was not different from any other turf, then you are probably gonna be pretty alone in this opinion. If what you are saying just is that you have seen non-professional soccer being played on pitches that crappy, I'm right there with ya - but that doesn't mean that the pitch wasn't a disgrace. Also, note that I nowhere used the pitch as an excuse for SKC's play - Independiente had to play on the same pitch and they played it way better.

    With regards to Croizet, I'm not sure how much we disagree.
    Is he the one 'big' signing of last year that did not really work out? Yes.
    Is he good enough to challenge for any of the starting positions that he could justifiably be used for (Russell/Gerso/Espinoza/Gutierrez' spots)? No
    (One should note though that only Gerso makes money comparable to Croizet, the rest make considerably more, so it should be expected that they outperform him)


    All I'm saying is, compared to the rest of SKC's offense, he probably had the best day - it's not like Salloi's or Hurtado's maps show any more successful dangerous passes or successful dribbles. I also find it very disingenuous of Doyle to include Croizet's shirt number in his tweet, as if that's the position Croizet was playing. The number #10 position does not exist in Vermes' system, and in so far as it does, Doyle should pick on Rowe instead of Croizet..

    And finally, I guess I didn't see a whole lot of spark coming out of Gerso or Russell. Gerso was hardly involved at all in the time he was on, and Russell had a bunch of successful passes, almost all of which were very safe ones though; he had one golden opportunity that was handed to him on the dinnerplate by their leftback's incompetence, which he wasted, and he had one of his patented 'run into three people' dribbles that never seem to work out anymore.
     
  14. lukeD

    lukeD Member

    Jul 7, 2011
    Olathe
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Discussion is poi SKC aren't beating Monterrey.
    Turf - yes it was poor. Both teams played on the same surface and it didn't bother CAI. I see Academy players that are used to playing on nice grass surfaces come here and play on fast, bouncy turf pitches all the time. They figure it out and adjust how they play. These are professional players and no pitch is so poor as to excuse the crap that we saw last night.
    Doyle included Croizet's shirt number because it identified the player in the graphic not becaue he is a "No. 10". That said, when he was brought here (before Gutierrez) the guy picked the No. 10 shirt. That shirt comes with expectation. One year in and as best I can tell, his best position is emergency left back. Maybe he should change his number to 13 or one of the cool random numbers players use these days.

    I agree with your points about Hurtado and Salloi. Hurtado has never been anything more than unpolished speed. For us to expect him to contribute passing on a team that plays possession is unrealistic. He's here as a change of pace forward or a forward that can attack long balls/through balls. He has limited value in buildup or combination play. Salloi, no idea what was going on but he was invisible. Maybe the pitch bothered him : )
    Gerso and Russell threatened goal several times in their 15-20 minutes. Gerso ripped off a few shots and got us a few corners. Russell was dangerous and willing to take players on 1 v1. They at least did SOMETHING. Until then, the attack consisted of Lindsey drawing a marginal PK.

    Last night was evidence that the two squad depth story we were told is PV's fictional concoction. We have one team and several quality subs. They make a great 18 but they are not two interchange units. It also was evidence of how important quality technique players are if you are going to rely on possession as your identity. Lindsey for Zusi, Wallace for Sinovic, Rowe for Gutierrez and Croizet on the field (anywhere) was a disaster for build up through possession. We couldn't keep the ball when challenged and ran out of ideas on how to move forward so the passing was mostly sideways and backwards.

    The other more troubling thing about last night was it solidified that we have no functional backup for Illie, Guitierrez or Nemeth. The midfield was awful last night. Illie and Roger looked tired and slow. Rowe looked slow and confused as a attacking mid. Hurtado can't play like Nemeth, so the attack with Hurado will only work if we play to his strength. So it has to be balls he can run onto with his speed. Expecting him to drop back and link play like Nemeth does, or complete intricate passes around the box...that is never going to happen.

    Lastly, with this weeks CONCACAF results, I say why bother wasting the energy. Monterrey and Tigres are the best teams on the Continent.
     
  15. Inca Roads

    Inca Roads Member+

    Nov 22, 2012
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I don't agree that the "two teams" idea is fictional, just wildly optimistic.

    I think Rowe and Busio can acceptably battle for Gutierrez's backup. Rowe, as mschofield was saying, seems to be a very disjointed player to our style of play. But I am actually pretty optimistic that he'll catch on to what he needs to do. He's a good player, a smart player, and I have confidence that he'll connect with the general team rhythm. This game was not a chance to showcase that though. There was no rhythm, was no team, and of all the starting midfielders last night, that was Rowe's fault least of all. It's hard to be a creative midfielder in Pete's system. But if Benny can learn, Rowe can learn.

    We are definitely deficient behind Nemeth and Ilie, however. Freeman and Kuzain need to pan out and soon, or we are going to see some long, sad days if either of those starters has to miss time. Hurtado isn't terrible or anything, but he's a step down from Shelton, and Shelton wasn't really good enough.
     
  16. Spassapparat

    Spassapparat Member

    SKC/Werder Bremen
    May 14, 2017
    I think that's a very good point on Hurtado - if you truly want a second team with an identical style to the first team, you should've hired a different striker (or kept Rubio). As a striker to give us a different look he might be of some use, but then you need to train this different look.

    Gerso and Russell - according to the MLS site, gerso had one blocked shot. Russell, I guess with the exception of that one failed dribble I don't see much in the stats that would suggest he tried to take them on a lot. In contrast, I would argue that Croizet did do just that - unfortunately his dribbles did not have a whole lot of success, just as his crosses mostly did not find anyone. In fact, one reason why I dislike seeing Croizet as a potential Espinoza sub is that imo he tries taking on players too much, which is ok as a winger but problematic in your own half in the center of the pitch.
    I also would like to point out that the Lindsey PK resulted out of a neat Croizet pass to Lindsey.

    I agree that our depth does not look nearly as good as thought so far. Here's to hoping that when any of them are being put into an otherwise functioning first-choice team individually, they will perform better. I'm guessing it's pretty likely that Rowe will be the first to prove himself that way on Sunday.

    Finally, perhaps it has been PV's strategy all along to drop out of CCCL against Independiente so we don't have to embarass ourselves against Monterrey? ;)
     
  17. Inca Roads

    Inca Roads Member+

    Nov 22, 2012
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I mean, I'd love to see us make a run in the CCL, but also I find myself giving way less of a shit than I figured I would. I used to love this tournament, but it is just so deeply, lamely flawed that I can't imagine a way for it to treat both MLS and other teams on even footing (because of scheduling). Either the schedule gets adjusted and MLS gets an unfair advantage, or it doesn't and everybody else gets one.

    I'd like to see us thrash CAI on Thursday. But I'm dying to watch us take Philly apart Sunday.
     
  18. lukeD

    lukeD Member

    Jul 7, 2011
    Olathe
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think its just the unfortunate reality of the competition this year. Tigres and Monterrey are 1, 2 in the Clausura and Santos is doing OK. All ripped their MLS opponents this week, and Tigres did it without Gignac.
     
  19. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think we could surprise Monterrey. I think this is a very good team. I agree that Tigres might be a bridge too far.
     
  20. Inca Roads

    Inca Roads Member+

    Nov 22, 2012
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Actually, having seen the Monterrey v Atlanta game, I think our season would be well served by not facing them. They were brutal and I don't feel like seeing important players go down injured.
     
  21. dgb09

    dgb09 Member

    Jun 11, 2003
    Overland Park, KS
    This is my frame of mind at this point. After watching us get hammered by Cruz Azul (was that really five years ago) I was down on CCL. Didn't see the point in wasting cycles on something that ultimately was always going to end in defeat.

    However, after last year when Toronto and Red Bull looked good and our first leg against Toluca, I was pretty amped for CCL this year. I was thinking it was worth the time and could be a great feather in the cap to progress and maybe pull it off.

    Now, after seeing us against CAI, and more importantly seeing Tigres and Monterey pummel their MLS opponents, I'm out. I don't actively root for SKC to ever lose, but I would be happy enough to see CAI pull out a 1-1 draw and let us move on to MLS season fully.
     
  22. SportingKCFan

    SportingKCFan Member

    Sep 2, 2010
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    i don't think it would be good for the team or the league if Sporting fails to advance against CAI. No MLS teams in the semi-finals would be a step back this year, at least in terms of perception. While Sporting may lose to Monterey, this team, if playing on all cylinders, could hang with them, especially at home. You have to keep playing the big boys to learn how to progress and it would be a great learning experience for the younger players. One step at a time and advancing to the semi-finals is a good one for this team. Plus if Vermes manages the player rotation right (a big if), Sporting has a punchers chance. Why not take it?
     
  23. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You could always root for them to win by 1 but allow more away goals... (3-2 for example would see KC go out...)

    I think you're overstating the perception of the CCL outside the diehards.
     
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  24. Inca Roads

    Inca Roads Member+

    Nov 22, 2012
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Yeah, losing this series would not be a great look, but if the domestic season goes okay, we'll forget about it really quickly. Virtually every team gets knocked out of every cup they're in.
     
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