Canucks Abroad - New Tracking Thread (as of June 30, 2009)

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Blizzard, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. dantasu

    dantasu Member

    Portuguesa Santista
    Brazil
    Dec 8, 2009
    Santos
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan

    zero coverage? neither in pay per view channels? (I'm brazilian, any idea about soccer coverage in Canada)
     
  2. cloak

    cloak Member

    Aug 25, 2010
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    You're right our sports media is a**. Guys like Bob McCown who lead the industry and don't even acknowledge football. Culturally Cavallini should be revered not unknown.
     
  3. cloak

    cloak Member

    Aug 25, 2010
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    We have a couple channels that show MLS and Premier League weekly, and a more expensive sport channel which sometimes shows other leagues from around the world, maybe Liga MX. If I want Liga MX i just free stream it.
     
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  4. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  5. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Tons of soccer on TV.....but not Mexican
     
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  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Stephen Antunes Eustáquio is a promising 21 year old Canadian prospect who's a midfielder at Leixoes S.C in Portugal 2nd Division. He helped shut down F.C Porto (1st Division)





    On his way to the National Team if he keeps this up
     
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  7. dantasu

    dantasu Member

    Portuguesa Santista
    Brazil
    Dec 8, 2009
    Santos
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan

    is he relative to Mauro Eustaquio or not?
     
  8. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    They are brothers
     
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  9. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  10. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
  11. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Yep.....and still only 27
     
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  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #562 Robert Borden, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
    Canadians help San Francisco Deltas win North American Soccer League title


    Many of those Canadians are MLS level players, however they are deemed "internationals" in MLS and there's nothiong wrong with that. These guys along with Marc-Anthony Kaye in Louisville and Jordan Hamilton at TFC II will go to CPL.

    Marc Dos Santos hopefully gets to coach in CPL as well. Too bad the timing is now for 2019
     
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  13. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
  14. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Kyle Bekker had 58 matches in MLS.....50 as a domestic player (ie. for Toronto or Montreal) and 8 as an international........what he was able to prove in those 58 matches is that he is not an MLS caliber/level player. He, really, is not very good at all.

    I have reached the same conclusion about Jordan Hamilton....another player who is not an international by current MLS rules with his current MLS team....yet consistently shows he is not a good enough player to play in MLS.......so.......

    .....if CPL is made up of Bekker and Hamilton type caliber players then it is exactly what some of us suspect.....a decent sized notch below MLS....which is fine....but let's not pretend anything different.
     
  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    He was for 58 games...so...yep...
     
  16. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #566 TOareaFan, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
    No he wasn't .....there were people who wanted him to be...so they kept giving him a chance.......he is actually a Canadian player (and there have been a few) where MLS rules were good for him.....TFC (and later Montreal) gave him more chances and longer time to "make it" than they would a foreign player....because there is a real rules advantage for them if a canuck makes it....but he didn't have it.....never did really.

    Which of the other Deltas canuck contingent were you including in the "many" that you think are MLS caliber?

    Canadians playing for Deltas:

    Nana Attakora
    Maxim Tissot
    Karl Ouimette
    Kyle Bekker

    The only one I would say ever was MLS level/caliber was Attakora....but his getting near 30 years old.

    If the CPL performs the function of giving Canadian players a place to play when their MLS dreams die then that is fine....but when I hear "mls caliber/level player" i think of players that could play in MLS now....not at some time the in past.


     
  17. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I said "he was", past tense. lol

    Would any of those guys be the worse players in the league? They wouldn't be the best, that's for sure, but there are worst than them currently playing in MLS.

    The rule advantage that you're referring to in regards to those Canadians being granted opportunities in MLS applies to Americans currently playing in MLS as well. With the league constantly expanding, more Americans are given opportunities as well. If you say that every American domestic player in MLS are better than those guys you're showing everyone how biais you are.

    I'm not saying those guys deserves to play in MLS. They are considered Internationals in that league and I'd agree that most of those Internationals are better. Hence the need of CPL.

    Canadians should have their own league like the rest of the world giving them the same opportunities (domestic rules) as everyone else. Reducing CPL to a league where Canadians who can't make it in MLS go to end their career is actually quite misleading and frankly insulting towards these players. CPL will be giving opportunities to the next generation and up and coming players, the exact same way MLS has done for American soccer players. Veterans like these guys do have value to help the younger players.

    You're making this into this competition that isn't one.
     
  18. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Since Bekker was, arguably the worst player in the league during his time with TFC...and the league quality has only gotten better since then....I'm guessing he might be ;)

    3 teams where those guys are not internationals have decided they are not good enough to play in this league....they all have other Canadians that they have signed and play to some degree....and none of them think these 4 either have it or still have it.

    No one is, or ever has, argued against that....but there is no need to make it into more than it is.....a place for Canadians to play.

    No one is doing that...nor does anyone need to do that.....the market will efficiently deal with it......like the 4 players above will show...there will be a place for them in CPL...but there is not a place for them in higher leagues like MLS.....their careers have found their level and it is not MLS it is a lower league...like CPL will be.....and that is fine.


    They certainly will help younger players....but, again, don't kid yourself...if a kid has the choice to try to make it with TFC/VWFC/L'Impact or Saskatoon SC....he will pick one of the top clubs in the country playing in the top league on the continent......the ones who will be available to, or pick, CPL will be the ones passed over/overlooked by those clubs.

    I am not making it anything......i just don't see the need to pretend that the league will contain players that are (to use your words) "MLS level players"....you know where MLS level players will play?.....yep, MLS!

    That is all fine....just don't make stuff up.
     
  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    During that time, everyone was terrible at TFC, coach, staff, players, everything ;)
    He improved, that was obvious the few times I saw him this season.

    Because they have better Canadians available to them. If there was more Canadians clubs, surely some of them would find a spot don't you think? The same way that as of now, some Americans aren't good enough to play in MLS, however, expansion creates new spots and overnight they are deemed "MLS Calibre".

    It's not that black and white. I'm not saying they deserve a spot tomorrow on a MLS squad, but I don't buy they'd be the worst in the entire league.

    Just like MLS is a place for Americans to play.

    My point wasn't whether or not they should play in MLS. My point is that they probably could but due to a number of circumstances including overall skills of course they aren't and that's totally fine. CPL is totally adequate for them once NASL goes under.

    Vancouver is moving their USL side to California, Montreal folded theirs to affiliate with Ottawa who's going to CPL eventually. You're left with TFC II & TFC III who in these parts are a joke.

    Sure, as of today and the near future, kids would knock on an MLS academy door first, but those teams are deserting that field so CPL academy might be all they have left. There has been great developmental stories outside of the MLS academy system, I see no reason why CPL future academies won't be able to do the same.

    Why you mad? No one's pretending anything. Everyone agrees that at start and in the near future, MLS will be higher than CPL in quality of play.

    Where you and I seem to diverge is that you have this need to keep hammering that MLS will be leaps and bounds above CPL while I'm saying, "yeah, it will be above CPL but let's not exaggerate by how much" ;)
     
  20. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    stated another way...."he looks a better player now that he is playing at a lower level"....seems he found his level!...and it was not as a "MLS level player" as you stated in the post that started this discussion.


    glad we are moving off the MLS is not for Canadians thought.

    Yes if there were more Canadian clubs more Canadians would play in MLS.....but since we are at (and will always be at) 3 and, yes, all things being equal the best Canadians will play in MLS (either for Canadian teams or as internationals on American teams....as quite a few do) and the less skilled/capable Canadian players will have another option to look to....the CPL is a good thing....but there is a limit to how good it can and will be.

    When you say they are MLS level players you are suggesting they are good enough.....since you added no past or future tense to the comment how was anyone supposed to know that you did not mean now?


    And Canadians and many other nationalities. At the time of writing the attached article, there were 288 American players in MLS and 28 Canadians......in a league where there are 19 US based teams and 3 Canadian based teams does that seem the rules are working against Canadians? It seems relatively proportionate to me.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/03/28/mls-once-again-most-diverse-league-north-america

    They probably could if their skills were better? Glad to see we are agreeing that the a major reason more Canadians are not playing in MLS is because more Canadians aren't good enough to do so.....and yes, CPL will be a perfectly adequate place for the next level of Canadian talent (the ones not good enough for MLS or leagues better than MLS) to ply their trade and earn some sort of a living.


    I was not aware that shutting down or moving their USL level club/affiliation also meant shutting down their academies....don't Montreal and Vancouver still have academies? Won't the most talented youngsters in the market try to make it into those academies?

    No one is mad......but where we really seem to disagree is that you think that MLS being a higher quality of play than CPL is only a start/near future thing......I can't imagine what would ever happen in the mid or long term to change that relationship.


    By a very very wide margin....and I don't think that is an exaggeration.
     
  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #571 Robert Borden, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
    OK we get it, you don't like him as a player. That's not what this is about or the point that I was making. There's a lot of "Kyle Bekker" in MLS but being American helps somewhat!

    It isn't for Canadians. It's for Americans. Canadians have to compete against Internationals & Americans on both side of the border, while Americans mainly compete against each other (domestic spots) and Internationals if they are good enough to dislodge them. You already know all of that.

    The best Canadians will play in Europe, South American and Mexican top tier. MLS don't belong to that club just yet

    I'm saying that they wouldn't be the worst in the league. If they were Americans, their odds of being part of MLS would be greater than now. Again, that's ok as MLS is an American League. As an International, if you can't be better than other internationals, you don't belong there.

    However, let's not kid ourselves here, Canadians aren't competing against Americans except on Canadian clubs, that's a big difference that you seem determine to avoid recognizing.

    I don't think the rules are against Canada. The rules are made for Americans first and again that's totally fine. Canada needs a league that does the same that's all. There's no controversy here.

    I explained above that Canadians aren't better than most internationals in the league and that they aren't competing against Americans for domestic spots, you still choose to ignore that very obvious fact.

    Putting things in reverse, CPL will have very few Americans as they will count as Internationals and it's unlikely a lot of them will be more talented than most internationals being brought in the league, doesn't mean they wouldn't be good enough to play in it, does it?

    Lastly you're comment saying: CPL will be a perfectly adequate place for the next level of Canadian talent (the ones not good enough for MLS or leagues better than MLS) to ply their trade and earn some sort of a living.

    That's F'N condescending.


    You should look at the rosters of some previous and current World Cup teams. Many rely on domestic leagues that are much weaker than MLS . The standouts will always go to Europe but a domestic league will be where the bulk of your player pool will be developed and as we see time and time again, teams with decent domestic leagues can create World Cup caliber teams.

    South Korea - 4 players in Europe.
    Iran - 8 players in Europe.
    Saudi Arabia - 0 players in Europe.
    Tunisia - 6 players in Europe
    Panama - 6 players in Europe.
    Costa Rica - 7 players in Europe.
    Columbia - 7 Players in Europe.
    etc...

    You're stick measuring contest between CPL and MLS is really irrelevant in the end and quite frankly, no one cares. You're one of the few who cares about that that much.

    They still due at youth/grassroots level but shutting down USL(Vancouver) and even D3 teams (FC Montreal) was a major blow to Canadian Soccer. That's more talent being wasted and lost because past a certain age, they have nowhere else to go. The truth about MLS academies is that they prioritize those who grew up in their system above the rest as they should.

    They'll sign prodigies that were developed outside their system when they come across them like Alphonso Davis but that's it.

    You make the assumption that every player will go knock on an MLS academy. You couldn't be more wrong. What happens if someone lives in Saguenay, Quebec? You expect them to send their kids to Montreal at such a young age? Of course not, they will put them in local academies and they will grow in the system until theirs nowhere higher to go after U18 or University teams.

    Canada's problem is mainly a structural one. It's actually unfair to expect the 3 MLS system to find the best Canadians out there. They virtually can't do that. CPL is needed because they will be able to go where MLS can't and won't go and find more talent out there.

    Octavio Zambrano said that the problem is that Canada doesn't know what's out there but he has a plan to find out and scout the entire nation and hopes the CSA sign on his plan. Benito Floro before being fire said that Canada's problem wasn't talent but the lack of minutes at club level and domestic league restricts massively how well Canada can perform internationally.

    When you say stuff that the best Canadians already play in MLS and that the low number of Canadians in the league is a reflection of what's out there couldn't be more inaccurate. Our problem is that, we don't even know what's out there and that's an embarrassing situation that needs to be corrected asap. How many Davies, Cavallini are out there that we're not even aware of?

    Kids do play in non MLS academies contrarily to what you believe, actually, the overwhelming majority does, however, they hit that dead end pretty fast and players in D3 who develop outside of the MLS system will tell you that making MLS is almost impossible if you aren't a product of their academy. That doesn't mean that there aren't more talented players out there.

    Also, MLS Academy track record at developing players within their own system with the amount of money at their disposal is mediocre at best and I'm being polite. We just need more and a better coverage. We need CPL to help.

    Actually, no one cares about that. Countries with weaker leagues than MLS puts better national team on the pitch. So you want to feel better knowing that your favorite team plays in MLS, be my guest. Have fun

    The rest of us cares about Canada not only consistently qualifying for the world cup but actually performing at a high level consistently. CPL does just that, providing an environment where more Canadians play at club level and thrive.

    MLS is above the Panama league by a very wide margin. Who's in the World Cup? Look where that got them in the end.

    Dude, it's so obvious that you care so much more about TFC & MLS than Canadian Soccer as a whole especially when you make condescending comments about Canadian players. I'll leave it at that.
     
  22. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I avoid recognizing it? My last post included a link to stats showing that Canada has the second highest number of nationals in the league.....so the league is recognizing them in greater numbers than other countries.....partly because of the part you seem to offer no credibility to (ie that on three of the teams they are domestic) and partly because of the fact that Canadians find can get immigration status in America a little easier than most other countries (so only one of the 3 Canadians on Orlando - for example - take up an international spot) and partly because, well the rules don't punish as much as you think.

    But Canadians do manage to get into MLS at what seems to be a proportional level.


    None at all....as witnessed by the number of times I have agreed that we need our own league....we just have to understand what that league will be.....not much could hurt it more than over inflated expectations.


    see above..I have never ignored it.

    I am not sure there will be as few americans as you think.......I would think Americans will be a relatively cheap source of international talent.....Americans coming out of NCAA or USL that can't find a home in MLS will look north for opportunity.....are there rules proposed that will exclude Americans?



    It is not condescending (F'N or otherwise).....players by nature will strive to be in the best league possible....partially for competitive reasons (everyone strives to be the best they can be) and partially for financial reasons.....money talks and the higher the quality of league the higher the likelihood of a good paycheque.


    really not sure what point you are making here....seems to have come out of left field and not related to anything we discussed to this point.....if you clarify I would be happy to respond.



    May I remind you this discussion started when you stated that many of the 4 players on the SF Deltas were "MLS level players"....so it is not me that brought it up.

    I really don't care.....because I am comfortable with how things will shake out and shape up.....the Canadian players will find their level....and the ones that remain in North America will see MLS as a first choice over CPL.....and if they can't get a gig in MLS then they will play in CPL....what part of that is wrong? Would any of those players currently playing for the Deltas that you think will end up in CPL turn down a gig in MLS?


    Experience in other sports tells us that kids will move from home for the greater opportunity....this has always been the case in hockey and is growingly the case in Basketball....time will tell if soccer develops differently on a more local basis.

    So....a player outside of MLS club academy develops to be a "better player"...ends up in a D3 team because despite the fact he is a better player but never grew up in their acadamies....but that will change if instead of D3 we say "CPL"? I admire your optimism about a) the quality of the undiscovered Canadians out there and b) that this will change if we have a different end point....I just don't share that optimism (mostly because I disagree with point "a)" and think that if there were players in D3 "better" than Canadians in MLS then the clubs would find them).



    Again, I was only responding to something you said (which you now say you don't care about) that the quality shortfall of CPL to MLS would only be short term.....i was (and am) just disagreeing with you on that.

    Everyone cares about that....we may disagree on how much impact CPL will have on it....but no one disagrees that it would be nice to see Canada in the World Cup more often.


    OK...we are really doing this? Picking one moment in time? Really, you want to suggest that if your league is better you should qualify every time? Is that what you are saying? I have a two word reply - Itally Holland.

    I still don't see where I have been condescending towards anyone......I don't think much of Bekker or Hamilton...is that condescending to you?

    I have been watching Canadian soccer for a very long time.....I do care about the national team, heck lost money on a bet in 1986....have watched a lot of national team matches live and on TV....and always hope for a victory.......but that does not prevent a realistic view on our prospects....with or without the CPL.
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    How many of those starts thought? :)
    It's insufficient to help Canada Soccer program, we can't solely rely on them, hence CPL

    Inflated expectation would be claiming that it would be as good or better than MLS in year 1, which is not possible. I recall many time saying the level of play is expected to be above NASL, and with the league folding, can't say it's unrealistic.

    Paul Beirne stated in a Q & A in Halifax that players (I'm assuming he meant internationals) must be playing in D1 or D2 leagues. Anything below will be deemed too low for CPL. That pretty much excludes NCAA and USL players. Americans joining the league will most likely come straight from MLS or overseas.

    It isn't about excluding Americans, it's about managers will most likely always prefer signing a European, South & Central American, Mexican ahead of an American of comparable skill level.

    First of all, you shouldn't overestimate how much a Canadian player makes in MLS. The disparity of salary in MLS is well documented and not admitting that is just bad faith at this point. We've established that a very tiny percentage of Canadians actually starts in MLS or play significant minutes, that means, they aren't breaking the banking either.

    CPL is said to have a minimum salary around what a CFL player will be making (~$53k). It's simply false to assume that every player will always choose MLS ahead of CPL. Sure you can go to MLS to bench most of the time or start/play double the minutes in CPL at a good salary, close to home and dare I say in one of the most livable country in the world. Being on the bench all the time or on a bus back and forth to USL isn't attractive either.

    If you think it's automatic that players will pick a paycheck to bench ahead of an opportunity to start, play way more minutes which gives them a better opportunity to improve their game, then you don't know how professional athletes thinks. Canadian soccer players have caught on what it meant to be Canadian in MLS (that too is very well documented)

    CPL needs to be a good league, creating an environment for Canadians to play at a high level and developing players capable to have great international careers for team Canada. My point is that comparing MLS-CPL is totally irrelevant. You have countries with league which most would deem "inferior" to MLS that can put on the pitch squads capable of qualifying for a World Cup.

    Benito Floro said it best before getting fired: The problem isn't talent. It's not having a league and not playing enough at club level. He even gave specifics such as:
    • Not playing enough means some players aren't use to play under pressure for 90 minutes. It's asking a lot to expect them to suddenly deliver in WCQ
    • I can't teach set pieces during call ups, That should be mastered at club level but they aren't playing enough
    • etc...
    So who the F cares that MLS is higher quality than CPL. In the end, it really doesn't matter that much. CPL just needs to be viable, entertaining so fans support it and produce players capable of helping the national team. That's the end game.

    To their credit, CPL doen't even have MLS on their radar and Beirne doesn't like questions on comparison of the 2 leagues. It's the end game that matters.

    Not necessarily. Someone who's the next Cyle Larin will seek Europe first and sure prefer MLS IF he knows he'll get Cyle Larin's minutes

    The Osorios, Jackson-Hamel, (Hell even Bernier used to be bench), Edwards, those good ones will think hard about it. If Patrice Bernier can spend over half a season in his prime on the bench, if Jackson-Hamel who's way more productive than Matteo Mancosu can't start to save his life, why would good Canadians jump at an opportunity to be benched most of the time? CPL upside is that players that have that level of talent will most likely start and play lots of minutes which helps them improve much further their game which can lead to better things.

    I disagree like you said that it will be as automatic as you claim.
    Actually, yes. Unless MLS start overpaying people that aren't starter, CPL makes sense. Again, it come downs to a players awareness of their talent. A Cyle Larin would go to MLS. A Jackson-Hamel might think about it more than you think.

    Those who can afford it yes. It's a HUGE sacrifice to make. Not everyone can make it despite having the talent hence Alphonso Davies who kept playing in Edmonton at youth level until Vancouver found him.

    CPL just provides a clearer path to top level than MLS does in Canada. MLS Academies can't catch everyone. Where was TFC when Manjrekar James was playing youth level at North York? Where was TFC when Larin was playing in MIssissauga? There's lots of examples like these. James' in Europe, good for him. Don't you see that TFC don't know what's in their own backyard. With CPL and more academies out there, were more likely to catch those players that we miss.

    That's 2 National coach in a row saying the same thing. You should look for Ligue 1 Ontario interviews where he says his league as lots of talent but MLS won't look at it. Same comes from players who says that if you aren't from their academy system, they don't look at you. Alphonso Davies is just an example of raw talent taht's out there that we happen to stumble upon. How many more Davies are out there or how many more MIllar are there? We don't know.

    It's unbelievably naive to think and even say that the 3 MLS clubs have the best players available in Canada, that's very naive to think that.

    Again, who cares? Comparable in the long term is good enough for me personally.

    The more reason for which league is better than which is so irrelevant. Ligue 1 is a not great but the French team is a world elite. My point is...it doesn't matter the whole CPL vs MLS
     
  24. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Mods...it just struck me that @Robert Borden and I have been having a lengthy CPL discussion in the wrong thread.....feel free to move this stuff to CPL if you feel appropriate....discussion is likely over as immovable objects seem to have met.
     
  25. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    Nah, it's been entertaining reading. I think you both agree on broad generalities, but you're getting mired down in specific strategies and perceptions. You're wrestling over fine print when we haven't even read the whole contract.
     

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