Canadian Premier league

So now Rugby and AHL doesn't count all of a sudden?

 

If you are going to jump in on conversations....read them first. Polygong was talking about York/Mississauga/Brampton....and I said it hasn't worked for other sports.

 

Important survey among existing soccer fans regarding CPL, just to give some idea of what existing soccer fans view CPL and their intentions

http://www.northernstartingeleven.com/what-the-fans-want-results-of-the-unofficial-cpl-fan-survey/

Some stuff I found interesting








Of course, we're talking soccer fans, not casuals. But within the community, the sense is that most soccer fans will support BOTH leagues and despite CPL being lower than MLS.

 

Of course actual demand matters.....before building facilities for any special event you measure the demand and whether the expenditure is worth it. In the cases of WWC and U-20 world cup here....we were not spending much on facilities and, yes crowds came....but we are going around in circles because i have said I don't see that as an indicator of likely attendance in a week to week league situation not tied to the big event/festival

The fact that over 8k showed up for a World Cup Q final ice hockey match between Switzerland and Sweden in May 2017 is not leading people to think "mmmm, maybe Paris France is a hockey market".

ok...it was all marketing.

No one said ownership does not matter......but ownership can't make people show up.....you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on how deep the soccer market is in some of these cities in Canada.

Have no idea....not something I am interested in. Pretty sure that over the years of not showing up the buying public in Canadian cities was equally uninterested.

I have no doubt that some will support both....I just don't think it will be anywhere near as many as you think.

A wholely unscientific survey targetted at a very defined "hard core" group of support(ers) is not proof (one way or the other).

It is how north american sports works.....The "Toronto" market is Toronto and it's suburbs....and the teams branded "Toronto" draw from those markets. People in the suburbs associate themselves with those. I did not make that up.

 

Ontario Hockey League Attendance
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=OHL1989&sid=2018

Belleville Senators AHL
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=12221

Toronto Marlies AHL
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=8496

CPL using CFL level resources for marketing would draw more. The point is, you constantly trying to paint this picture that suburbs haven't been supporting their teams is an exaggeration. They do for hockey and this is junior hockey with limited resources except the few exceptions pointing to the London Knights.

I don't see how York Region (1.1M), Peel Region (1.3M) couldn't draw 5K consistently assuming that the game day experience is there, marketing is done right and ownership is solid.

 

Curious....was price part of the equation? When asking (for example only) the fans in the south end if they would be buying tickets to both CPL and MLS did they differentiate on price?

If I (just to personalize it) was willing to pay, say, $30 a match to see MLS but indicated that I would buy CPL tickets as long as it was USL level or above....was I asked if the price I would pay was $10/$20/$30? Doesn't price matter? (along with other things like quality of stadium/game day experience/etc.).

 

With your past comment claiming that "there are only 3 real CMA and the rest were little towns attached for no good reasons"...something like that...Just saying that I don't think you have an open mind for non MLS markets to begin with.

Ownership use marketing to get people to show up, I mean it's kind of business 101 at this point. If you don't advertise/promote your product the right way, people won't show. If the product you present is below what clients pay for, they won't come back either.

Again, you think Torontonians just showed up to support TFC??? Major marketing work was done not only to make it happen but to miraculously keep it going which is what Paul Beirne has been massively credited for.

 

We have nothing to draw on in York Region....but Junior Hockey has been a shocking failure in both Mississauga and Brampton........Canadian Professional Basketball League failed in both cities.....Raptors 905 (taking out the school days games that we have talked about previously) also plays to fairly small crowds.

So, as someone who has bought tickets to all of those events .....yes I have my doubts about either of the Peel cities supporting a CPL team (if either even had a stadium).

 

Of course it matters, that's up to CPL to price it right

Comparing major league and minor league will always be comical to me. That's all

 

We do only have 3 "real" CMAs.......most of what statscan call CMAs do fit my definition of small centres attached for no real reason. There are a couple/few (Calgary/Edmonton/Winnipeg come to mind) that are real cities but there is no value of creating a "CMA" because the population of the CMA is not markedly different than the city population on its own. The suburban part of the CMA is non-consequential.

When I made the comment you paraphrase (although you got it close enough) I think we were talking about St. Catherines/NF.

Yes marketing matters....but you can't sell water to people who aren't already a bit thirsty.

 

When the people answered the question was price part of the question they were asked? It is easy to say "I will support both teams" if in your mind the "lesser" team is going to be (say) $10 a ticket.....how strong is that support if, say, the price goes to $25? If that was not measured then the survey is a bit meaningless.

Of course we are now going to argue about which of those (on a relative basis) does the buying public view CPL.

 

Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg...already more than a couple. And what about Ottawa-Gatineau? Quebec City?

Now you're claiming the demand is low to the point that marketing won't matter...not thirsty tou say? That's your opinion...not fact

 

Yes all I have been offering is my opinion......did I ever say otherwise? Just like you also have been expressing your opinion....this has all been a discussion about opinions.

Yes, I do not believe there are enough markets in Canada that are thirsty enough for soccer that they can be sold soccer at a price meaningful enough to support a business selling soccer.

 

The survey was aimed at existing fans and supporting group members. You'd be surprise by the way of how many of the TFC SG are also part of the CPL SG. Would it shock you if the answer was most?

You want to deem the whole thing invalid because you don't like the answers, be my guess

Why bother?

 

Good thing the League isn't viewing Canada as traditional markets like the CFL is doing but more specifically using a more local approach to recreate the Euro model.

So that makes you partially right

 

Would not surprise me at all....but that was my point about the "unscientific nature" of the survey...it was targeted at the hardest core, most committed support....so, no it is not a surprise that this group has a fairly high level of interest in the CPL and a strong desire to support it.

But here is some news......the SGs make up something approaching 10% of the attendance at any TFC match....ask the other 90% of the people at the match if they have even heard of the CPL (never mind...."would you buy tickets to both") and you might get a much different set of results.

That is your opinion of what I am saying....I am looking at the set of circumstances objectively.

because if the general buying public (not you, not me) view the CPL as a minor league.....does your dismissal of minor league experiences not be brought into discussion?

 

I guess there is a first time for everything

 

No one pretended it was scientific. It was to show you that supporting both was doable

The league are already doing focus groups with fans, casuals and none fans... they are doing their due diligence

Right... because you can't objectively see some points where I do make point... that's very objective of you.

Oh so you've surveyed that 90% already? I thought you were "objective"

 

It will be doable for some.....it will be price and time commitment dependent and, of course location of the CPL teams dependent. None of which were addressed in the very abstract survey question.

Where are they drawing the people for the focus groups being drawn from? I only know about them because I follow PB on twitter....otherwise I have seen no mention of them.

You and I disagree a lot....that does not mean either of us is not being objective.....it just means we disagree.

What possibly could have lead you to think I said that?

I said we could debate whether the general public would see CPL as minor league or major league.

you said "why bother".

to which I said "because if the general buying public (not you, not me) view the CPL as a minor league.....does your dismissal of minor league experiences not be brought into discussion?"

I did not say (or even suggest) that I knew what that answer would be....I just said "if"........but you really seem set on picking a fight....so go find someone else to fight with.

 

The CPL will be seen as minor league. Even just comparing it to MLS.

 

From what I've heard, not only twitter. There are firms taking care of that. Yes, it ran professionally, shocking I know.

If time commitment and price is a big factor, it's a hard sell for casuals to go out of their way to see MLS when CPL next door is right there.

 

Yes but the key is by whom? Canada? MLS cities? Hardcore MLS fans? By you?

Are we talking at start? Until they reach 10k attendance average or forever.

Was MLS a major league when it started or did it grow to become a major league?

Titles are beside the point. The leagues objective and it's mandate is what matters. The league isn't interested to compete with MLS. Both leagues have very different mandate and it won't be a competition until CPL penetrate the 3 MLS cities.

 

geez...all i did was ask a question....it is not shocking that they would use an outside group....I just asked if you knew...because all I had seen was PB's tweets.

Yes, I think reality will set in and time and dollars will matter....and force a decision for most (not all) to pick supporting one team or the other. Some will pick MLS some will pick CPL, the split of that choice will be a factor (not the only factor) in determining the success of any team in the suburbs of the MLS markets.

 

Geez I'm just picking on you, not trying to get you mad

The whole CPL vs MLS is really in the 3 MLS cities, not the rest of the country where MLS is a non-factor. I'd even go as far as to leave Montreal out of it. I know we disagree on how much of a grab TFC and Whitecaps have on the surrounding cities