Canadian Premier league

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikehurst21, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    A maritime soccer team would be required to run an academy and there isn't any serious soccer academy servicing the over 1.7 million people in the region. Right now the region is a big hole in the CSA's Long Term Player Development program and a team there would help meet one of the CSA's core goals to developing soccer in Canada.

    Halifax is the largest population centre but the city doesn't have a large enough stadium and there is active opposition to any proposal to build one. Moncton (second largest population) is the only city that has an existing stadium and is pretty much equidistant from all the other major centres of maritime population (Fredericton, Saint John, Charlottetown, Halifax). It's one of the few growing urban areas in the region and they averaged 11,000 fans per game (with about a $30 ticket average) for the Women's World Cup matches in 2015. The infrastructure is in place, they just need a team. A professional soccer team in the Maritimes would be the *only* summer professional team in the Maritimes. Currently, there aren't any except for the NBL (basketball) and QMJHL (hockey) teams that play in the winter.
     
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  2. FootySkeptic

    FootySkeptic Member

    Sep 24, 2015
    Club:
    Cardiff City FC
    #52 FootySkeptic, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
    I think including both of them for a launch for the reason of containedness might be a mistake. As would over romanticizing a coast to coast footprint. As mentioned by Kingston earlier this list excludes Winnipeg, and the Saskatchewan which are larger more self-contained markets. IMO some of the speculative lists about locations of cities has derailed from the reality of the economics of the proposal. The Maritimes lacks a lot of infrastructure (albeit with a better linked airport than Victoria) required to join a nationwide sports league. This is why they are not yet in the CFL as well.

    I'd wager against the Maritimes for getting a team for numerous other reasons, but I'll put it this way: If you are going to choose between Halifax and being in the third largest province (Victoria) in the country who would you pick between the two? I even think Victoria might be a stretch of a market choice but it makes much more sense if they can't get into Vancouver anywhere.

    EDIT: @Initial B being part of the CSA's plans to get an academy out there makes a lot of sense that I missed. Yet, it still seems a little far-fetched to me, how have they done historically in the challenge cup? Is it possible that it's being linked to a potential CFL expansion out there as well? What else am I missing in regards to the Maritimes?
     
  3. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Do you honestly think that, at the onset, you would need anything bigger than this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huskies_Stadium
     
  4. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    Ah, I was looking at the list of Soccer stadiums in Canada, where that is not listed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_soccer_stadiums_in_Canada

    It says Wickwire field only holds 2000 spectators, so that's too small. I have heard they are trying to create a league with average crowds of about 10,000, but I don't know what size of crowds they are expecting for this league right out of the gate. They will need at least 3000 per game to break even with a TV contract, and about 6500 per game without a TV contract.

    As for the history of Maritime teams, Saint John Drydock won it in 1980. The Holy Cross Crusaders from St. John won the 1988 cup and were runners up the following year. King of Donair from Halifax was runner up in 1995 and won it in 2001. Churchill Arms F.C. from Charlottetown won it in 2010. So there has be some success in the past two decades. They also have the New Brunswick Premier Soccer League (5 teams, including one in PEI) and Nova Scotia Soccer League (7 teams, mostly in the Halifax region) that play some games against each other. They should probably amalgamate and form one league, but canadian soccer feudalism will probably prevent it.

    As for the CFL, there was a report that stated only Moncton or Halifax would be able to support a team and only if they supported each other (as Saskatoon supports the Roughriders in Regina). The salary cap for a CPL team will probably be only 1/4 of the CFL salary cap, so the financial impact will be less.

    Travel will be an issue. However, if they break the league into eastern and western conference teams, it's likely that teams could charter buses for intra-conference games. It's about a 15 hour bus ride from Moncton to Hamilton and about 13 hours from Edmonton to Winnipeg. I feel like the 8th team would be in Regina over Victoria since Victoria would be just too far to bus - all the teams would have to fly there. I checked West Jet and a firm return flight from Moncton to Victoria would cost about $1000 a seat. Oddly, that's about the same cost to fly from Moncton to Regina - probably because they route everything through Calgary.
     
  5. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Think you mean Montreal right? Though it's more like 12hrs.

    ~18hrs from Hamilton to Halifax.

    Just under 10 hours to Quebec City.

    FYI, Canadian regulations for coach driver is that they are not allowed to drive more than 13hrs in any 24hr period: http://www.charterbuslines.com/xpdf/driverhours.pdf

    So getting to QC is doable, while Montreal is borderline. Any longer and it makes much more sense to fly.
     
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  6. mikehurst21

    mikehurst21 Member

    Oklahoma City Energy FC
    United States
    Nov 6, 2013
    Moore Oklahoma
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Hamilton Tiger-Cats have released a Hamilton soccer team supporters survey so its supporters can tell them how they want to support their club this is a huge sign that the CPL is definitely coming http://timhortonsfield.com/hamiltonsoccer
     
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  7. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    a bit unrelated...but perhaps not....if this league ever gets going and if they are serious....maybe they should look at some of the really neat, but simple and relatively cheap stadiums being built in some smaller footballing countries in Europe.

    I am more familiar with the ones in Scotland (like St. Mirren's ground for example) but I just saw this $12 million one on twitter and it sparked this posting.

    http://stadiumdb.com/news/2016/08/new_stadium_karvinas_first_football_experience

    Small in capacity but a very real footballing experience and I bet a very good atmosphere.....here in North America we seem fixated on mega stadium projects....but for our sport and it's position in Canada this is probably more fitting than those.
     
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  8. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Agreed. Canada needs to get away from this whole "North American Way" mentality, because it is really the "American Way", which works great for America because it's a a country with a large population and economy. Canada on the other hand is very sparsely populated and has a much smaller economy as a result, thus the "go big or go home" mentality just results in going home far more often than not.

    We need to pull ideas from other countries with similar geography and demographics, regardless of what part of the world they are located in.
     
  9. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    ^even look at things like golf and tennis tournaments. I went to my first Open Championship this year in Troon and all over the course they erected "temporary" stands....the only reason we knew they were temporary was because they weren't there the month before and won't be there the month after.

    the whole time I was there I just envisioned 3 of those on each touchline at Victoria Park (yep, I am a brampton boy) and how that would give you, likely, about 5k capacity real cheap...but comfortable and efficient.
     
  10. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Another thing to bear in mind is that every potential city for this league has a university, who all invariably have stadiums that would be of adequate size. The sole exception being Mississauga (if the Sigma FC rumours prove true) as UTM doesn't have a stadium.

    The downside to this being that they would likely be playing over CFL lines.
     
  11. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Not sure that even has to be true....most of a CPL (if that is what it is called) season would be during the offseason for the college football...so most of the time the lines could be erased.
     
  12. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Good point.
     
  13. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    it is actually a pretty good complimentary use of, largely, publicly funded sporting infrastructure
     
  14. FootySkeptic

    FootySkeptic Member

    Sep 24, 2015
    Club:
    Cardiff City FC
    UTM's inner field is soccer centric lines and all. There is not much for seating although in the past there were bigger ones when the Argos (when they had R. Williams) practiced at the inner field. The Argos -prior to the fire that resulted in them leaving- moved to the outer field during the construction of several new buildings on campus around the inner field.

    Temp stands could be placed, it might be a squeeze but its not impossible. The central tennis courts are kind of in the way of a large stand. These were just moved there from another area to build a parking structure on the outer road.
     
  15. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to Wikipedia, nine countries in UEFA have a larger population than Canada, including Great Britain which is divided into four soccer "countries." A UEFA country with the same population as Canada would have way more soccer fans. Canada has 2.12 times the population of the Netherlands, which has a good league. Belgium, Greece, Portugal, Czech Republic, Austria, and Switzerland have good leagues with fewer people than the Netherlands. Canada has about 3.5 times the population of Portugal. In 2015-2016, Portugal had 5 clubs average over 11,000 fans. Then there was a big difference down to the sixth highest attendance. Multiplying 3.5 x 5 = 17.5, so if soccer was as popular in Canada as it was in Portugal, Canada could have a league with 18 clubs all averaging over 11,000 attendance.
     
  16. fuzzx

    fuzzx Member+

    Feb 4, 2012
    Brossard
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The fury have shown that having CFL lines or not all comes down to money. If the teams are willing to expend the extra operating costs to change it back and forth, then it'll happen.

    And it's not all or nothing either. depending on the university team schedule(ex: playing away for 2-3 weeks), it might end up working out to paint soccer lines a few times during the fall even if they are not willing to do it every week.

    Also cooperating on the schedule a la TFC/Argos has some potential to simplify something like that as well.
     
  17. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    If this league is successful, there will be room for stadia like this in some of the smaller cities (although, as others have pointed out, a reasonable university stadium might outweigh the benefits of a perfect small soccer stadium even there).

    Since one of the main reasons this league is likely to get off the ground is CFL participation, however, I think we'll be stuck with most teams playing in CFL venues even if they are way too big.
     
  18. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    A lot of MLS teams started in NFL stadiums, and some stayed there many many years before getting their own stadium. A few still do. Whitecaps and Fury still play in a CFL stadium as well.

    It's nice to have the more intimate place to play rather than a large cavernous place that's largely empty, but it seems to work if need be.
     
  19. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    #69 Initial B, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
    Just heard about this:



    It looks like the CSA is being forced to announce something due to the reports that FCE and the Fury are thinking of closing up shop or moving to the USL. They need to say something because the lack of information is leading to uncertainty and instability. They'd better have their plan in place as they've had long enough to get their affairs in order. They need to:

    1. Get a decent TV contract from a national network, tying in World Cup Canadian broadcast rights to the deal.
    2. Get one of the national air carriers to sponsor the league and subsidize travel in return for advertising.

    $10 million in annual revenue guaranteed for 10 years would go a long way to helping make the league survive to stand on its own feet once attendance starts trending upwards.
     
  20. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    ^MLS gets, what, 75 mil a year from ESPN for their rights.....using the old rule of thumb of 1/10 the most a canadian league could hope for would be 7.5/year....now factor in that the three biggest markets will not be involved.....I highly doubt that a CPL gets anywhere near 10 mil a year in revenue from TV...I would suspect their best deal would be zero up front and a shared reveneue/marketing deal.
     
  21. FootySkeptic

    FootySkeptic Member

    Sep 24, 2015
    Club:
    Cardiff City FC
    CFL deal is 30+ million a year? Granted it includes the biggest TV markets, I think a ~10 million+ per year contract may be feasible if it is tied to WC Canadian MT & WT broadcasting rights.
     
  22. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    MLS gets $90 million a year from TV revenues. I believe the last CFL deal was for $40 million a year ($200 million over 5 years). And last year they announced an extension of the contract for another three years, so it must be good for both parties.

    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/05/28/cfl-extends-tv-deal-with-tsnrds-another-three-years

    I wasn't thinking of $10 Million from just TV Contracts. I was thinking $7-8 million a year, another $2 million equivalent in travel subsidies, and maybe another million or two in sponsorships. You're right that it would be a hard sell without the 3 largest markets, but that's why you have to dangle the carrot of the WC Canadian broadcast rights (which *would* have massive interest in the 3 largest markets).
     
  23. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Well, if you have to tie the national team rights to get to $10mil....you have to deduct from that the amount you were already getting for those rights to figure out the net figure.....like I said, I think this league gets a zero dollar deal with a share of any ad revenue over the cost of the broadcast.......I don't see them getting any millions of dollars from the networks just to show the matches.

    The CFL deal is rich for what the league is but it has a long history of producing very very good tv ratings....no domestic/continental club soccer can say that in this country.
     
  24. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    That's because there hasn't been a professional national league in over two decades (CSL doesn't count). We have the infrastructure now to provide a domestic path for players up to U23, but there is no place outside of the MLS/NASL clubs for Canadians to ply their trade domestically. I don't think the CSA has any choice but to bite the bullet and start a league and keep it going for at least a decade, absorbing whatever losses comes its way. That's the only way Canada will be able to take the next step in it's World Cup aspirations.

    To get buy-in from veiwers within the MLS club viewing areas, they'll have to use the provinces in the names (maybe BC FC for Victoria and FC Quebec for Quebec City). For the supposed GTA team, maybe they could get away with using the old name for Toronto, call them the York Gunners or something.

    And this is all going to have to be single entity a-la-MLS if this has any chance of surviving.
     
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  25. Initial B

    Initial B Member

    Jan 29, 2014
    Club:
    Ottawa Fury
    Just to continue on from my last point, the new CPL can't afford to run less than 8 teams and more than 10 teams. I would start off with Victoria, Edmonton, Calgary and Winnipeg in the Western Conference; and Hamilton, Ottawa, Quebec City, and Moncton/GTA in the Eastern Conference. If that's stabilized, they can run a 10-game Spring Season (April-June) and a 14 game fall season (July-October) with playoffs involving the season winners in each conference in a single-game elimination format over two weekends, with the season finishing by Halloween.

    If that stabilizes in the first 5 years then the league could add 2 more teams, say Saskatchewan and the GTA or Moncton, whichever isn't in the initial 8. A ten-club league is what many CONCACAF nations have so should bring up the talent pool. However, I would not grow the league beyond that number because of the declining portion of TV revenue per team (assuming any). I guess they could get away with a 16-team league if there is no interplay between West and East Conferences, and that would lower transportation costs as well, but wouldn't do much for TV eyeballs.

    24 Games (plus 2 playoff games max) involving a couple dozen Canadian players (you know that if there are 8 international slots available per team, those players are going to be starters) should build enough quality within a decade to win Canada through to the Hex, if not actually qualify.
     

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