Canadian expansion possibilities

Discussion in 'NWSL Expansion' started by WPS_Movement, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    Alright, this thread is dedicated to the league expanding into Canada.
    With the Canadian soccer federation's involvement, I have to think that Canada will have some expansion franchises involved at some point in the future. Who are the cities or franchises you think will have a team? Here are the top candidates. I included a team name and logo idea, just to get it started, and give some ideas out there. We'll start with Ottawa Fury, and end with Calgary Moonlight.


    OTTAWA FURY
    Team Colors: Blue, Red, White
    Comments: Ottawa currently has a reputable franchise with many fans. All they have to do is transition into the league, and take on some added risk. Will they? If so, how soon?

    [​IMG]
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    FC Edmonton
    Team Colors: Shield Blue, Black, Maple Leaf Red
    Comments: This is a great location for an expansion franchise in Canada. You get the feeling Edmonton just may be in the league at some point. Will they have the same logo as the men? Or something different?

    [​IMG]



    Vancouver BottleCaps
    Team Colors: Blue, White (same colors as the Vancouver Whitecaps)
    Comments: It may not look strong for the Whitecaps to have a franchise in this league anytime soon. It could be like the Seattle situation. A franchise penetrates its way into the league, but it'll be a different team, same city. From Sounders to Reign. From Whitecaps to BottleCaps. People in Vancouver love to drink. It's gotta great ring to it. Vancouver could still have a franchise in this league, despite the situation with the Whitecaps. Vancouver Wilderness was also considered, due to its breathtaking scenery.

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    Toronto Avalanche
    Team Colors: Winter Ice Blue, Freezer Gray
    Comments: It snows a lot in Toronto. And what a great location for a franchise. If Canada has a few franchises in this league at some point, you would think Toronto is assuredly one of them.

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    Molson FC (Montreal)
    Team Colors: Red, Gold, Draft Blue
    Comments: Moslon was founded and operates out of Montreal. The perfect team name for a Montreal franchise. It would draw fans. Anything with the Molson logo in Canada is GOLD, especially in and around Montreal. The best GOLD jerseys in the league would be right at home at Molson FC. And if Molson wants to increase their brand among women, why not here with a sponsored women's professional team?

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    Calgary Moonlight (also known as Goddess FC)
    Team Colors: Purple, Pink, Midnight Black
    Comments: Calgary is known for its beautiful bright lights and moonlight scene late at night. The fans would identify, and nothing has more of a feminine ring to it in this league than Goddess FC. This is a hockey city of course, one of the most passionate hockey cities in Canada. But there's room for a women's team here on the pitch. A catchy name like Goddess FC, aka Calgary Moonlight, will spark attention. The crescent moon could be shaped like a "C", to stand for Calgary.

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    CONCLUSION: If Canada has at least four franchises in this league at some point, I expect Canada to equal the U.S. in total # of subsidized players. What that # could be at some point in the future, is beyond reason. Whether its 28, 30, even 32 players, for both USA and Canadian paid national team pool players (current and future development for young talent), it would make sense for Canada to have a few franchises in this league for their sake, to energize and grow the interest level for their fans at home (as this sparks more young girls to play soccer, and increases their future talent level). Who knows, maybe this is what it would take for them to win a WWC someday.
     
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Santa must not have brought enough toys for you to play with.
     
  3. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    I can see Vancouver and Toronto as prime targets regardless what they call them. The league seems very interest in forming rivalry pods and Vancouver is perfect. Toronto fits nicely with WNY and is just as close to Chicago as KC. U have to believe Canada wants to do something to further prime their fans for WWC.

    The real problem with expansion is diluting the talent pool. I dont see the US paying any more because all theyd be doing is sliding free agents onto their payroll. That means either more feds involved or bigger commitment from Canada and Mexico.
     
  4. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    Why wouldn't the U.S. want to pay more in the future?
    They currently have close to 30 in the official national team player pool (29 to be exact), and at one time in the past they had as many as 42 players in the official player pool (during the year 2010, which was the year before the 2011 WWC). There was also a league then in 2010 (WPS). There is a league now. More players will show that they are worthy, and then the U.S. can have more of a player pool to select the cream from the crop, to ensure they field a stronger team to send to the WWC.

    Look at the infusion of talent coming in the near future.
    Crystal Dunn, Kealia Ohai, Julie Johnston, Maya Hayes, Morgan Brian, Vanessa Dibernardo, Mollie Pathman, Sarah Killion, Katie Stengel, Mandy Laddish, Chioma Ubogagu, Tiffany McCarty, Victoria DiMartino, Caroline Miller, Ally Miller, Erika Tymrak, Kassey Kallman, Kendall Johnston, Rachel Quon, Amber Brooks, Zakiya Bywaters, Adrianna Franch, Bianca Henninger, etc. Most of these players have one year of eligibility remaining, or have already exhausted their collegiate eligibility, meaning just about all of them will be in the league by 2014.

    Not all of them will end up in the player pool of course. But the amount of "depth" the player pool will have soon will be unlike anything we've ever seen before.

    There will surely be more add-ins to the player pool, than those that exit out.
    The current player pool of 29 players will eventually go up to almost 40 again (before the 2015 WWC), probably during the 2014 NWSL season. Sermanni will want it that way. He will experiment and find the best 21 players for the 2015 WWC team. 24 subsidized players aren't enough. That number will eventually expand to 28, and then possibly max out at 30 or 32. This will happen naturally with expansion.

    If U.S. soccer eventually pays 30+ players down the road, and Canada and Mexico increase their haul, and Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, etc. step into the league, then this league can have 16 franchises.

    12 USA and 4 Canadian franchises would be optimal.
    The breakdown could look like this:

    Total Subsidized players
    USA - 32 players (2 per every team in the league)
    Canada - 24 players (1 per every American franchise, 3 per every Canadian franchise)
    Mexico - 24 players (2 per every American franchise, 0 per every Canadian franchise)
    Brazil - 16 players (1 per every team in the league)
    Colombia - 12 players (divided up among the 16 teams)
    Costa Rica - 12 players (divided up among the 16 teams)
    Haiti - 8 players (divided up among the 16 teams)
    ---------------------------------------------------
    = 128 players

    Colombia, Costa Rica, and Haiti (12+12+8) = 32 players.
    They would combine for 32 players, so 16 franchises would each be getting a combined two players from Colombia, Costa Rica, and Haiti.

    128 total subsidized players / 16 franchises = 8.0 subsidized players per franchise.

    Which leaves open an opportunity for further expansion past 16 teams down the road, if need be, since 8.0 subsidized players per team can slide down to 7.0 per team.

    The numbers work out best this way.
     
  5. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    12 USA franchises
    Seattle
    Portland
    Los Angeles
    Bay Area
    Kansas City
    Chicago
    Boston
    Connecticut
    Sky Blue FC
    Western NY
    Washington DC
    Atlanta (multi-million $ soccer stadium. they need to be in this league)

    4 Canadian franchises
    Vancouver
    Edmonton
    Ottawa
    Toronto


    Two divisions in the league:
    If/when the league eventually expands again past 16 teams, Chicago could slide into the Atlantic division.

    Pacific Division
    Vancouver
    Edmonton
    Seattle
    Portland
    Los Angeles
    Bay Area
    Kansas City
    Chicago

    Atlantic Division
    Boston
    Sky Blue FC
    Western NY
    Washington DC
    Connecticut
    Atlanta
    Ottawa
    Toronto

    You play everyone in your division twice. And everyone from the other division once.
    Total of 22 regular season matches.

     
    ButlerBob repped this.
  6. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Well the first reason is the actual USWNT players wont want them to. Theyll say hey, if there is more money available why isnt it being split up between the 24 player u already pay. It's the same reason why Olympic and Fan Tour bonuses only go to the players actually on the roster. The new contract will spell out exact how many can get paid and at what level. The old contract was structured to pay 20 players, 14 of which would be top tier players. It also gave USSoccer the right to employee 4 more players at it's discretion at a third lower tier. That gets u to 24. They also had the right to bring in players for 6 week trials at a pay as u go rate. If USSoccer is planning to add more pay slots in the near future, it will have to be negotiated into the new contract with the players.

    The second question is why pay more players when ur already paying the players who appear in games? U dont. That's what the league is for. They pay college seniors and free agents and the USWNT (hopefully) identifies the 24 best players and those r the ones paid by USSoccer each year. Now u may make an argument that there should be a development tier as well to pay the best and the brightest of the U-23s (say 6) who r out of college. Whether the core WNTers who negotiate the contract, sharp women like Sauerbrunn and Buehler have been recent team reps, want to divide up the money pool any farther is debatable. Ur not going to find anyone in the top tier thinking they r over paid and their interests may very well lie with getting more money for the lower tier in the current 24 than spreading the wealth even further.
     
  7. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    The Bottle Caps, really?

    No mountains near Toronto so maybe they can switch names with Calgary.
     
  8. RUfan

    RUfan Member

    Dec 11, 2004
    NJ
    Club:
    Sky Blue FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That "player pool" on the US soccer site is just a list of everybody invited to a camp during a specific year, not an "official" pool. Somebody at USSF just complying a list. There are generally up to 24 with contracts (maybe more if injuries). Sunil used that 24 number when announcing the new league.

    I will repeat something else. At the friends & family group in '07 in China, one bit of gossip was that all the players on the WC roster were moved up to the high tier if they were not already at it. Thus I believe the number of players at the high tier is greater than the 14 cited above and by others.

    I do believe that Costa Rica needs and may want to step up their player development. CONCACAF will now has 3.5 slots (plus Canada as host in '15) for the WWC. South America now gets 2.5 slots. Costa Rica's competition is now that other SA country. (that's part of the reason CR was willing to come to the US to be slaughtered back in Sep.) IMO that Mexico realizes that it has to step things up not just to make the WWC but to be able to move on from the group play to the knockout rounds.

    Now we can go back to the thread intent about Canadian expansion.
     
  9. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    There are smaller mountains not too far from Toronto.
    But we can bring out the Toronto Blizzard.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    Blizzard is more fitting. Sponsored by Dairy Queen perhaps? :p

    And what are these mountains of whence you speak? How far away and how high? Mountains, grasshopper, mountains. Not hills.
     
  11. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    Only $7.00 at your local Toronto Blizzard match.
    Dipping dots are only $6.00.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    Costa Rica is all but a done deal. They want it, and you're right, the 2015 WWC expanding to 24 qualifying teams has everything to do with it. The league has to accept them still.
    But will the league have a "minimum" subsidized policy? USA has 24, Canada 16, and Mexico 16.

    Would 12 be the minimum from Costa Rica?
    Are 12 players from Costa Rica even good enough to be in this league?
    Maybe the minimum would be 8 then.

    I doubt they let Costa Rica pay for just 3 or 4 players.
    If they want in, they better commit at least 8 players (would be my opinion).

    But it's known that Costa Rica does want in. They have more than just mild interest.
     
  13. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Is it realistic to have two confederations involved in a single league? I think there would be control issues. Perhaps it would be best to focus on CONCACAF nations and let CONMEBOL do their own thing.
     
  14. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    This is the women's game. Anything is realistic, and FIFA isn't going to do anything to prevent Brazil from coming into this league. Heck, what top notch pro leagues does CONMEBOL even have, or propose at this time, for women?

    I'm expecting super professional leagues to be formed (or re-branded) in three areas of the world:
    -----(North America, Europe, Asia)
    NWSL (North America)
    3 or 4 in Europe (Germany, Sweden, Great Brittain, France)
    2 or 3 in Asia (Japan, Korea, etc.)

    Those are the three areas in the world where the top women's professional players will be playing (which is happening now of course), but the difference will be that there will be more integration and sharing of trade secrets among them, to grow the women's game internationally. FIFA knows this is the yellow brick road that the women's game is going down. There will be no such super league in Brazil or anywhere in CONMEBOL for that matter. It would help the women's game, to allow Brazil's players to be spread to super leagues throughout the world, including some of them being subsidized to the NWSL in North America.

    Super League = Tier 1 pro league (not just a pro league, or semi-pro league per se')
     
  15. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm saying that mixing confederations would lead to all sorts of administrative head-butting even if everybody had good intentions. Who makes the final decisions when confederation bosses disagree on league policy? There isn't any mechanism for doing that. I think FIFA would frown on it for precisely that reason. It would throw unforeseen problems in their lap.
     
  16. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    The League is run by one federation (USSoccer) under one confederation (CONCACAF) the others is just suåpporting players in it. Currently FIFA/UEFA is expermineting with shared control League in Netherland/Belgium but that is not the case here.
    So in case of any conflicts the decsion is with USSoccer and then CONCACAF to have them overruled and then FIFA, not a shred of doubt there.
     
  17. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well yes, of course. I was addressing the hypothetical suggestion of another poster that Brazil be included in the league. That would mean two confederations would be involved. There's no precedent for mixing two confederations in one pro league (that I know of) so how would you sort out policy disputes? It seemed like a bit of a stretch to include CONMEBOL nations in NWSL given how FIFA operates.
     
  18. Katreus

    Katreus Member

    Jul 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Er... from what JanBalk has said... exactly as JanBalk said?

    So, I guess it doesn't matter if Brazil is in. They support players but USSF runs the league and they get final say, only overruled by their confederation and the overarching FIFA body
     
  19. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's just a presumption. The point is that there's never been a federation which has directly footed the bill for long-term player contracts in a league outside its own confederation. You can't just presume the power dynamics will all work out because you say so on a message board. Brazil is contractually bound to CONMEBOL, not CONCACAF, but now people here are suggesting they could be contractually bound to BOTH confederations. That's never been done before so you don't know how that works out. I think FIFA would see that as potentially messy arrangement.
     
  20. Katreus

    Katreus Member

    Jul 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a pay to play arrangement. What exactly would be the conflict? It's a contract that would not conflict with CONMEBOL. Essentially: we pay for these players, so our players are guaranted to be in this league. As part of that, we realize that we have to follow the league rules, which are set by the league, which is run by the USSF.

    If they have a policy disagreement that the USSF refuses to listen to, they pull the funding and the USSF kicks their players out or they appeal up the chain (CONCACAF, FIFA). I would see more problems with FIFA player rights than CONMEBOL.
     
  21. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    But there have been and is several clubs that done the same. Normaly when a players is loaned to another club it is the recieving club that pays his wage but not always, what is always true is that the platyer is subject to the rules of the league he plays in and not anyone else for league matters.
    That they are footing the bill don't give the other federations any direct influence or decion right in the league (only indirect in that they could perhaps convince USSoccer or the Clubs), this is pretty much the same as a UK civil servant (non-diplomat) being based in Sweden there are no question that he is subject to Swedish law just because government of UK is paying his salary (he may be subjcet to UK law to, but that would be secondary the law of the country he works in).
     
  22. TsovLoj

    TsovLoj Member

    Aug 16, 2012
    Several things to say here.

    A. I don't think Brazil's going to get involved in NWSL. Not only is cross-confederation funding a logistical mess at best, but they've shown pretty clearly that they don't give a damn about their women's team. They aren't getting any money to play in the US. Costa Rica, sure, maybe, although we have no reason at all to call it "all but a done deal". There's no hard evidence of involvement from them at all, but it's at least plausible.

    B. On more on topic news, I don't see Calgary ever having a team. I lived there for two years and I was the only person I ever met who cared at all about soccer. It is not a soccer town. And it being a women's team compounds the problem. People care about the NHL, the CFL, and minor league hockey, in roughly that order, and anything else is off the radar screen. You'd be lucky to get a USL men's side to be fiscally stable in Calgary.

    C. Others I see more hope for. Ottawa and Vancouver for sure given recent buzz, but also Edmonton, which by contrast does have a bit of a soccer scene. The main problem I can see with Edmonton is travel times, as they're basically at the edge of the world. Calgary's the only city within a day's drive and as I established above, Calgary will never have a team.
     
  23. WPS_Movement

    WPS_Movement Member+

    Apr 9, 2008
    Here are the Canadian franchises, in order (from greatest to least chance) in providing the league with a city for an expansion team, based on city, geography, soccer demand, soccer history (along with perceptual potential ownership).

    Perceptual odds of landing an expansion franchise
    1.) Ottawa
    2.) Vancouver (close to Seattle & Portland, it would be worth adding Vancouver geographically)
    3.) Toronto
    4.) Montreal (Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal are all close enough to each other geographically)
    5.) Edmonton (secluded geographically, so the chance of them being in NWSL is not as strong)
    6.) Calgary (doubful, but it's a nice city & area. The "Calgary Crunch", would be a good name, and a nice logo. I like it better than Calgary Moonlight FC, or whatever I called them before)


    [​IMG]
     
  24. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Vancouver is the flat out winner in this contest. There are several Nat players withing 25 miles of the stadium.


    Don't want it, though. Christine likes Portand and I' rather not she have to choose.
     
  25. TsovLoj

    TsovLoj Member

    Aug 16, 2012
    ...Do you mean perceived? I am finding this a horribly strange turn of phrase
     

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