Can we please enter the Copa America....please?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by CbR, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're apparently unaware of the recent history of the Copa America.

    Plus, it's one thing for Gooch to use an offseason for the Copa America. It's another for him to play in the Gold Cup in 2007 and 2009, and the CA in 2008.

    EDIT: Just to reiterate, I think it would be GREAT to have an Americas Cup in 2008. 2007 could be CONCACAF playing qualifiers to supply 6 teams to that. Fall of 2006, the minnows play to get the best 12, add them to the hex teams from 2005, 3 groups of 6, top two in each group go to the Americas Cup. That's gonna be 10 matches for us in 2007.

    I realize that this will somewhat interfere with WCQ as currently configured. Throw some money into Warner's Swiss bank account, and I'm sure he'll go back to the old system of giving the Big Boys a pass, and have the minnows play off to get the 6 teams for the pre-hex round. (Added to the 6 teams in the Americas Cup.)
     
  2. Bill Schmidt

    Bill Schmidt BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 3, 2003
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, that would make it infinitely more fun to follow the U.S. national team. It would also strengthen the Copa America without cheating the weaker Conmebol nations out of their spots.
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. Your list mixes'n'matches two different types of players. You've got your Howard-Gibbs-Gooch types, and your Feilhaber-Adu-Demerit types.

    2. If we send a 2nd rate team, what the hell is the point? We get killed, and hurt our FIFA ranking, which is a determining factor in getting a seed. Further, the more we lose against good teams, the harder it will be to get good teams to play us in friendlies, which everyone and their uncle has braying about, when we have our whole damn A team together and NEED a match against someone good.

    You think we can just ring up Italy or France and get a friendly? No. Why is that? France doesn't want to play us, they want to play Brazil or Argentina or Italy.
     
  4. Bill Schmidt

    Bill Schmidt BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 3, 2003
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With us finally winning Concacaf qualifying, and the arguable fall of Costa Rica as a strong #3 in the region, our senior player developmental future lies to the south. We have been reaching out for a few years now. Mexico getting Libertadores invites, creating the Interliga, letting us host the Interliga, MLS clubs playing in the Sudamericana, Conmebol playing the Recopa Sudamericana in L.A., etc. Participation with South America will make it more fun to be a U.S. fan because there will be more regular good competition, and cool places to travel to see the team.
     
  5. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    - Build good relations with CONMEBOL; see above.
    - Develop good young home-based players who won't be second-rate by the next WC (two years later) or the WC after that (six years later)

    Fair but tenuous point. We have no idea if the FIFA ranking system is going to continue in its present form. My money's on no. An 0-3 performance by Number Five against Number Two certainly makes my prediction of rankings overhaul after WC06 look like a winner.

    Moreover, there's no guarantee we'll get killed. Our U-23s will hopefully hang with and beat Venezuela's and Bolivia's. Argentina's and Brasil's will probably beat them like a read-headed stepchild. If losing to ARG and BRA hurts one in FIFA's rankings, the rankings are even stupider than I thought. Let's play Latvia 40 times a year. Then we should be a lock to get that seed!

    That's a proposterous argument on the face of it. Let's not play good teams in competitive matches because then if we lose we can't play good teams in friendlies? Digging deeper, I grant that you're talking more about the timing, that assuming we're going to only get so many good opponents to play us, let's save it for the most timely opportunities. But I'm not one of the braying. I think playing good teams in WC-prep friendlies is worth far less than playing good teams in competitive matches earlier in the WC cycle.

    Moreover, if the US soccer team is such a fragile piece of crystal that letting it out of the box might risk breaking it, then who we play in friendlies is the least of our worries.

    So you're saying that matches against Brasil and Argentina are of value to France? That France would jump through more hoops to play Brasil and Argentina than they would to play USA or Costa Rica? Are you sure that contention helps your side of this argument?
     
  6. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    But CONEMBOL seems amenable to inviting us to CA, which means we can add at least three more meaningful matches to our schedule.

    Let's face it, as it is, we get about 10 truly competitive matches in the semifinals and finals of World Cup qualifying, about 3 (at most) in the Gold Cup and 3 in the Confed Cup if we make it that far.

    There's no Gold Cup qualifying, or CA qualifying for that matter, so we can't add matches that way. So we can add 3 more from CA, giving us between 16 and 19 truly competitive matches between World Cups. On the other hand, the Euros play about 20 competitive matches between the Euro qualifiers, the Euro championships and World Cup qualifying. I'm eliminating the San Marino, Malta, etc. matches as they really aren't competitive.

    We'd have the added bonus of playing away from home, so we get used to coming together on the road.

    Now, MLS... I did a little digging, and it seems that aside from the July 4 matches, July is a wasteland as well. Perhaps we do continue with "MLS lite" during the CA, especially as more teams move into venues they control.

    Sachin
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm less sanguine about the power of 3 matches by our up-and-comers (but at the time 2nd-raters) to improve them.

    The FIFA system includes the margin of the loss.

    It's not "if" it's "when." Again, if we could send even an A- team, I'd feel differently, but I think it would be a B or B- team, an uncompetitive team.
     
  8. Samshipn

    Samshipn New Member

    May 24, 2005
    Originally Posted by Samshipn
    Please don't make me list all the players that play professional soccer and or on club teams abroad. My guess is just about all the players from the Copa America do. IF ADRIANO can take time off of the Italian League to play for Brazil, our players have no excuses.

    If the players themselves say, "thanks but no thanks." Then they don't need to be on our national team in the first place.
    what part?

    SOME VERY BASIC HISTORICAL FACTS that seemed to be over looked by Americans in general:

    1) South American Countries have won more World Cups than ALL of Europe.

    2)The three power house teams of the Copa America: Uruguay, Brazil, Argentina combine for the most World Cup Victories of any 3 nations in the entire world.

    3) Countries from the Americas with the most Copa America Wins also are the same teams with the most World Cup wins. This includes World Cup Finals Appearences too.

    4) No Team from the Americas have ever won a World Cup with out having won the Copa America first at sometime. (ever)
     
  9. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    It almost sounds like you're playing fast and loose with causality.

    "Nations" with yellow as their primary shirt color won the World Cup in 1958, 62, 70, 94, and 2002. And look at Ecuador and Australia this year! As the final proof, white-clad Brasil lost as a huge favorite in the Maracanaço in 1950. So obviously changing our team colors will make us play better.

    You likely wouldn't make a leap like that, though, so I guess you're just saying that there's a lot of history and tradition in the CA, in some sense more even than in the Euro championships, right? I totally agree with that.
     
  10. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    I don't want to get caught up in semantics, and I also don't want to lose sight of our common ground. Do you consider a team of, say, the 21 best players in MLS and two starter-caliber players based in Europe to be a "B" or an "A-" team?
     
  11. Samshipn

    Samshipn New Member

    May 24, 2005
    funny how u guys can spin Victories into shirt color. funny i have to admint :) This shows how impossible some of u guys are.:rolleyes: we're talking about playing soccer games more games.. Yellow yes = Brazil , last time i checked Brizil was in south america.. and last time i checked the W-Cup was won by them.. Who won the Copa America?
     
  12. Gioca

    Gioca Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Hartford
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Say YES to Copa America.

    Say NO to MLS.
     
  13. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    Obviously my point about the shirt color example wasn't clear. I need to write more clearly.

    Correlation doesn't equal causality. Condition A may be highly correlated with Condition B, but that doesn't mean A causes B. B might cause A. Both A and B might be caused by C.

    In your example, no North American team has ever won a WC. The three WC-winners from South America, ARG, BRA, and URU, had each won a CA by 1921 and have won 14, seven, and 14 respectively. So one could just as easily say, "Every World Cup winner from the Americas had won a Copa America by 1921." Or "Every World Cup winner from the Americas has won a Copa America at least seven times."

    Winning the Copa America correlates highly with being a strong soccer power. Winning the World Cup correlates highly with being a strong soccer power. Hence winning the Copa America correlates highly with winning the World Cup. That doesn't mean that winning the CA causes a nation to win the WC.

    If you read anything else I've posted on this thread, you know that I love the Copa America and I want to see the US participate in it. I just don't like bad arguments for good ends, that's all.
     
  14. Samshipn

    Samshipn New Member

    May 24, 2005
    Cool.

    ok makes since, ignore the last fact. Your right. too generalized or whatever u want to call it. u win that one. But it is still true . The other 3 hold water..
     
  15. Samshipn

    Samshipn New Member

    May 24, 2005
    the point i was trying to make is this:
    Teams that repeatedly have won the Copa America - win world cups (regardless of shirt color) LOL . JK ;)
     
  16. Asprilla9

    Asprilla9 Member

    Dec 15, 2000
    Beaverton, OR
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    superdave, i never figured you for a Defeatist Studies 101 lecturer ... congratulations on the new appointment. ;):p

    i just picked people that I thought might go. Howard, I think could benefit from the experience (and it would be good to get him that before we start HEX qualifying). Gibbs, again needs international experience. Gooch doesn't really, but if we could have him for CA or GC, i'd choose CA every time. the younger guys (anybody that didn't make the WC roster) would jump at the opportunity to represent the US.

    Reyna, BMB --> done anyway. the only guys i can see not coming are Cherundolo and DMB. everyone else will be too old and retired from the Nats anyway. a guy like Convey will still likely be fighting for their first team status, he'd go.

    in 2008, we could have a European nucleus of EJ, Dempsey, Spector, Feilhaber, Adu, Convey, Gibbs, Gooch, Howard. minus TH, all will be 25/26 and under. bottom line: if you think our youngsters will get run off the pitch 4-0, 5-0 by the CONMEBOL youth teams .... well then, you have a VERY grim perspective for the future of US Soccer.

    again, EVERYONE sends 2nd rate teams to the CA. that's the point. if you think our 2nd-raters are so much worse than Paraguay's 2nd-raters ... then you must think we suck as a footballing nation.
     
  17. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    Right, that's my problem with superdave's argument. It posits that we're going to get drilled so badly as to hurt our FIFA rating substantially and scare off potential friendly opponents, among other ill effects. I just don't think that's valid.

    If I'm wrong and that is valid, then we're rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. We've gotten incredibly lucky and have no basis to expect a national side any better than Trinidad and Tobago or Angola. Maybe we can make another World Cup or two in my lifetime and not embarrass ourselves.

    I'm not sure that's 100% correct -- the the list of 2004 leading scorers I posted. I can't tell you offhand whether Adriano or Saviola were on their respective "A" squads or not in 2004, but they certainly help make for a hell of a "B" squad.

    But not every South American country is one of those two powers, and I think an MLS + a couple of Euros side should be able to hold its own, finish second or third in a group, and learn much from getting beat 2-0 or 3-0 from "Brasil A-" in the quarters. That's worth some disruption to the MLS sched isn't it?
     
  18. Asprilla9

    Asprilla9 Member

    Dec 15, 2000
    Beaverton, OR
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no, it's not. you're right. i exaggerate for effect sometimes. looking at the names, it ain't 2nd rate. there's NOTHING 2nd rate about some of those names. but if you look back as recently as 1991 or 1993 (95 KIND OF .. but not totally), teams were bringing their A squad, lock stock and barrel. Brazil kind of started with the youth movement in 95 and everyone has followed suit since then. so if you compare the teams now to those back then they look like B teams (i.e. position by position, top to bottom). but this is all kind of getting skewed now as elite world class footballers are getting younger and younger. i.e. how old's Messi again? :p
     
  19. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    Aha, I finally found what I was looking for. The RSSF CA 2004 page has full rosters for each squad as well as match reports with lineups. If i compare it with the contemporary WCQ lineups then i can get a sense how seriously each team was taking CA. Let's dig a bit.

    Suppose we had played in Costa Rica's stead; what kind of opponents would we have faced? I'll put my working analysis at my Wikipedia subpage to avoid taking up space here. Feel free to join in the excavation process!

    (I love wikis.)
     
  20. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think by 2008, as more of the best MLSers go to Europe, that would be a B team.

    Now, if you want to know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.... :D
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My belief is that the Feilhabers would go, and the Howards would beg off. That's part of my concern.

    Um...so what's the point of going to CA again, then? I thought this whole rant started because we sucked against the CR, and the diagnosis was that we had not played enough strong teams, that we weren't ready for Nedved's and Rosicky's quality.

    I think my biggest thing is that there are aLOT of posters who think going to the CA is really important. Me, personally, until I'm convinced that we wouldn't be stripping MLS, thus undermining the league, in order to participate with a 2nd rate team in a 2nd rate competition, I'm against it. But I'm not on a crusade or anything. My biggest thing is that playing in it or not is really, really marginal. We have enough players, we just need more of them to get better training earlier. THAT'S what the US has to do to join Spain and Germany and Argentina on the world elite stage. And nothing can accomplish that but time and patience, and more players with a higher level of playing experience retire and become coaches at more places in our system. I know this is just a yapfest, but folks, there's no magic bullet out there.
     
  22. PhilipReed

    PhilipReed New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    WMass
    I actually agree with you. Playing in CA or not is only going to have a marginal impact on development of the team. My advocacy of CA has more do to with the principle, "You shouldn't piss off potentially valuable allies without a good reason to do so." To me that's what swings this decision from marginal to clear.

    Perhaps the USSF has considered the potential spillover benefits of the Libertadores or the cost of having Mexico bolt for CONMEBOL and being in a federation that's falling apart. (The latter point being, it would be nice to have CONMEBOL on our side if such a thing should happen.) If they considered these benefits and costs and still opt for strengthening MLS, more power to them. But I'm of the opinion that one home Libertadores draw against a major SA club team will do more to gain MLS credibility among Lat Am immigrant populations than years of DC United - Dallas fixtures.
     
  23. TxFan

    TxFan Member

    Sep 6, 2001
    I too really want us in Copa America. We really need more competitive matches... and for personal reasons, the only soccer side i really support is the US National Team... I hate the long boring layoff until qualifying starts again... I need more competitive games to watch!
     
  24. Asprilla9

    Asprilla9 Member

    Dec 15, 2000
    Beaverton, OR
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i knew you were going to say this ... my fault, i should have just addressed it originally.
    it's not a panacea. certainly not. but it is still the oldest tournament in the world. it is still very respected. the crowds are still every bit as raucous. it still involves playing against very tough teams in very tough venues. it is without a doubt the best international atmosphere our US team can possibly get outside of a WC (inarguable).

    again, look at the performance against the Czech Republic ... how can you NOT think our team needs more international seasoning? i understand training and playing more guys in the big 4 will help this, but more (better) competition like the CA will also help this.

    i just think if you've got the opportunity in front of you, it's foolish not to take advantage of it (if you've got the Euro-based players to make it work). and i found your argument that "we won't do well, so we shouldn't go" to be most ridiculous. we're not getting a seed in 2010 anyway. Mexico is a lock for one, and they're not gonna seed 2 teams from CONCACAF, especially in a non-UEFA/CONMEBOL WC.
     

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