Camp Cupcake: Jan 2019 Edition

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by keller4president, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003


    In case you were to lazy to watch @TheHoustonHoyaFan video, Columbus Crew put the play on twitter.

     
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  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    He got beat off the dribble the majority of times he got isolated.
     
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  3. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree. Everyone has a moment like this. However I always get the feeling with Trapp that he's a midfielder that holds a player until he gets help like Bradley and Acosta while McKennie and Adams can hold but also just attack and tackle the ball away. Not sure that's who you'd want in that role unless you think you will be dominating the other team. Pirlo could pull that off in his prime but his teams still had to put terriers like Gattuso next to him just in case but he was maybe the best ever at attacking passes from deep even when harassed.

    I don't want to go back to a 4-2-3-1 because the outside attackers have more defensive responsibilities just to add a clear #10. Maybe if Pulisic really can be that 10 but otherwise if he's on the wing I don't want him tracking all the way back all game long I want him near goal. Same with Weah if he's a winger.
     
  4. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We can accomplish everything you want to avoid if we do a 3-4-1-2
     
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  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    To borrow a phrase from our good friend Suy.... when Trapp is off, he is incredibly bad and when he is on, he is downright average. Everyone doesnt have plays like that. The issue is that he gets beat in that position most of the time. The attacker ran right by him when he clipped the guy for a penalty against Brazil. Trapp was spun in circles in that game and they walked right through the middle of the field. Offensively, Trapp is no where near the level of Pirlo which makes his defensive liability not worth it. If we had a game tomorrow and we had to with that role, I'd start Hyndman or Durkin over Trapp.

    Pulisic has shown he can be the #10. I cant understand why this continues to be a question for some. He played as a #10 his whole life except for most of the time for the last 3 years at Dortmund. He carried a very weak team through the Hex. He is already the most talented american player we have ever had. My uderstand is that we played a 442 defensively and one of the 8/10s joined the forward and that would be CP in my lineup as Mckennie would drop in with Adams. I'd prefer wingers like Weah dropping deep on defense, but I'd much rather he play wide mid defensively than Trapp play as one of the cmids. I also think the knock on Weah's defense is stuck in 2018. He has shown a willingness to track back at Celtic and will get better as he matures physically.
     
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  6. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That’s why it’s a question for some. His professional career has seen him play wide not at as 10. Youth level doesn’t mean much to folks. It’s what he does against pros in a pro environment that will shape whether people think he can play the role.
     
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  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    That seems naive and simple minded. He has mostly played wide at Dortmund because they have had Reus, Gotze, Kagawa, Sahin, Mkhytarian, Gundogen, etc. He has played some more centrally and been quite successful. Can you explain why these same people want Adam's to play some hybrid right back role when he has been a central midfielder for over two years.

    He has been quite successful playing centrally for the USMNT. No other amid has done that or would even play at Dortmund. He played AMid in 5 of the hex a contributed 5 goals and 4 assists and that was without any real structure. Lletget, Roldan, Milhailovic, etc are doing that. The main reason is Dortmund > USMNT > MLS.

    Ultimately, it comes down to the skill sets of the players and the needs of the team. I'd generally want one of my top players in central attacking positions. The alternative people throw out and what we saw in January would mean filling that spot with lower end of the starting XI.
     
  8. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Bradley scored a brace for Toronto's opener today. They had obviously planned to have Bradley advance further into the central area of the final third opportunistically (say that 3x fast) and it paid off. Incredibly I think I heard broadcaster say that Bradley did not score a single goal in 2018 or 2017 so those goals were his first since 2016. Just think that in 2014 he was CAM for Klinsmann's World Cup team.

    The above should be a lesson for Adams at the 6 fans. Taking a guy out of his comfort zone can be very helpful, to echo Klinsmann philosophy. What Klinsmann got wrong was that he didn't distinguish between taking a guy out of his comfort zone and taking him out of his ability zone.
     
  9. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You’re mixing it up. Those aren’t overlapping situations. The first have a valid argument. Yes he’s done well centrally against weak competition but they want to see it at a higher level first. The other camp is MLS pundits moving Adams cause it serves their objective of keeping Bradley or Trapp in the 11 when they don’t belong.
     
  10. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Puli wouldn't be the first guy to play winger for club, CAM for NT. Eden Hazard comes to mind.

    Of course we'd need to see how he does against decent rivals in friendlies. Personally, I don't see it, because you need top awareness to pull that off.

    But I may be wrong.
     
  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    They aren't overlapping but im not mixing anything up. I'm focused on the USMNT. Pulisic doesnt play centrally for his club because he is still developing and they have tons of talent centrally. He has had incredible success playing centrally for us. Most of it has been against second tier CONCACAF teams, but also looked good centrally or on the left but floating inside a lot against Mexico over two years ago. He has played more centrally for Dortmund and has impressed in those moments.

    I havent seen anything from the alternatives to suggest they could do what he did against inferior competition or the potential to grow that they are effective against better competition.
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Beacon NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Roldan playing d-mid for Seattle because "that's where Greg Berhalter would want me to play", according to Rob Stone.

    Two first half goals for Jordan Morris so far at Centurylink.
     
  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It’s obvious that CP is our best offensive weapon. Do we want that weapon in the middle or on the wing?

    I would put him where he matches up best - if our opponent has a vulnerable flank or an outstanding CD/DM, I’d put CP out on the wing. If the opponents CD/CMs are slow, I’d play him centrally.

    TLDR: focus on which matchup works best for CP and let him loose
     
  14. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Hmm... all the Top 10 teams in the EPL are coached by guys from Continental Europe or South America.

    Benitez, the Austrian guy coaching the Saints, and the German guy who was assistant manager under Dave Wagner and is now coaching the Terriers are the only guys not from the islands coaching in the Bottom 10.

    The EPL spent billions buying players without success, until they figured what they needed were the coaches too.
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You are out smarting yourself and ignoring the data we have. We dont have the talent and depth to play like that. We saw in the Hex what happens when he plays out wide. We didnt have the midfield to get him the ball and when we did he was double and triple teamed.

    I wouldn't move him out wide until we had another attacking mid close to his talent level. If our opponent has a vulnerable flank then we overload that side with CP overlapping at times.
     
  16. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pulisic doesn't need to play the classic 10 for us.

    What he needs is the freedom to roam in and out centrally. Arena was a chump for sticking him on the touchline where he relied on our cast of mediocres to get him the rock. They aren't good enough for that.

    Formations are formations. He just needs freedom to roam.

    I like him below a striker in a 4-3-2-1 or 3-4-2-1. It's basically just maximizing his involvement.
     
  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Klinsmann gave him the "freedom to roam" in Columbus in that first half when everything went pear-shaped.

    But Puli must have grown somehow as a player since. I wouldn't be against him getting the Messi role again, let's see what happens.
     
  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    CP lined up centrally for the first 30 mins and wide for the rest, but had freedom to roam the whole game. He had some stray touches, but was quite effective the and caused plenty danger for Mexico's central defenders the whole game.

    He is easily the most talented american attacking player we have ever had and his 2017 performances were on par with anything other Americans have done before him. It shocking how much better we played against Mexico in Columbus than say against CR in Harrison. It was also nice to see Altidore "protect" him which wasnt present in 2017. Arena really destroyed that team.

     
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  19. SamsArmySam

    SamsArmySam Member+

    Apr 13, 2001
    Minneapolis, MN
    Maybe you're right.

    But some players excel with more space (and time), and that happens more in wide positions. I think it's an open question where CP should play.

    If McKennie and Adams can hold down the middle, then let CP pick apart the opposing D with his passing into the box from wide positions.

    Unbalance the D by taking on and beating players 1v1. Wide positions also let CP do exactly that with minimal counterattack risk.

    I think back to Donovan. Centrally, he sometimes disappeared and failed to impact the game. Wide, he often had a more consistent impact. His best WC06 performance was against Italy after the red cards. Why? Space (and time) opened up for him.
     
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  20. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Defensive responsibilities can be adjusted without changing the formation.
     
  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Fair enough on isolating him out wide. I believe that Adams/WM combo has significantly higher upside than the declining MB+XX combo we used in the 2018 cycle. Therefore, I think we can find a way to get him the ball more often regardless of whether he plays centrally or out wide.

    I'm not sure why he'd get more defensive coverage on the wing than in the middle: I'd think he'd have a harder time vs. strong teams in the middle than on the wing.
     
  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    [moved to another thread]
     
  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    CP excells in tight spaces. It is always an open question where to play guys in the future, but we should decide where to play him today. History suggests he has played best for us centrally and there is nobody anywhere close to him in that role. Playing him centrally allows him to see more of the ball and be a goal scoring threat.

    Not sure why you are comparing him to LD. LD was a special snowflake that shouldnt drive any theories on our players. We will never see another player as soft as him. CP is mentally built completely different. He doesnt wait for the game to come to him but seeks out the ball. He was also tuned in for the Italy game after not showing up for the Czech match. Not sure the reason that he turned it off against Ghana, but dont buy it was because 20 vs 22 players
     
  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Go watch the CR game. He was double and triple teamed out wide. Without a strong player on the other side and a team that doesnt switch the ball well, it is very easy to have defenders cheat to one side.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Do you recall which games he was out wide and which games he was in the middle? Perhaps the difference in results that you mentioned is primarily due to the strength of our opposition (CR and Mexico).
     

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