Camp Cupcake: Jan 2019 Edition

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by keller4president, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Personally I am inclined towards you get your window and do with it what you will, there's a reason Pulisic is integral and others never get another email. But we can agree to disagree there.

    But where I'd draw the line here is Nguyen for use now (as opposed to arguing the past) is 32 and would be 36 by Qatar. I believe in a "plus-4" approach where the coach shelves the oldest players based on the injury and retirement risk percentages. Similar argument to what people make on Bradley. Already too old and in 4 years....hoo boy. Even if he might be worth it now I don't like building around players who likely won't still be involved, healthy, and playing at the level in 4 years. My theory is you can always find their phone number if they are playing out of their mind closer to 2022 and we have a specific need later on. To me doing it that way speeds the transition and forces the older players to play their way back on the team with excellence, as opposed to living off rep and being made core of the team only to fall apart like Jermaine Jones did. And then you're scrambling.
     
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  2. Cannons

    Cannons Member+

    May 16, 2005
    Im not sure Lee could make the roster at 36 but I do think he could help us qualify. If he is past his time I would be the first to want him gone but I have seen him play a few times last year and he still seems mobile. Bradley however plays old now and I see nothing he can contribute anymore plus I think hes a cancer on the team and should go. It will be interesting to see how he looks with the young, fast team in camp now and what GB does with his pets Trapp and Zardes if they're not cutting it.
     
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  3. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't see why Parks couldn't be on his way to Phoenix now.

    How dead is that stadium going to be btw? Sits over 63k and this is a Cupcake match against a team without a big fan base.
     
  4. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Yeah, I don't know what happened between Parks and Sarachan. Parks was frozen out after the Bolivia game. I was just watching the hi-lites and Parks didn't look all bad in a short appearance. He looks like somebody who can come on as a sub for some scoring pzazz.
     
  5. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In fairness, he fell out of favor, and fairly so imo, with his club team. Not being Benfica level doesn't automatically make him not of any use to the USNT, but he didn't get a loan to prove his worth with a lesser club either.

    He should have been employed more by Sarachan initially, but after summer putting him on the back-burner was what I'd have done as well. But this is Jan. camp.
     
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  6. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    With some of these guys in Europe we want to look a bit skeptically at how they are doing at their clubs and see if we can give them a hand up with some reps. I single out Parks because of our lack of a skilled 10 role player. What would the team look like with him playing ? I think 2 starts with senior team is a fair initial assessment. Having said that, my sense of Parks is that he can come on cold as a sub and whip up some initiative on the attacking side.

    I wish he would have gone to Toronto instead of NYCFC but I have the feeling Benfica wanted Torrent coaching him?
     
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  7. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Go check Ticketmaster for the seating configuration. You will not be disappointed
     
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  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's crazy.
     
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  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    He looked solid. Not great but solid. It's kind of like Amon where he did some nice things and then next time is gone and we don't have enough wings that camp.

    I think he would fit in fine with the camp cupcake set but he would also be redundant of a fair amount of players' skill sets. That's not no, it's don't you already have 20 DMs in camp. What we really need are wings. Bad timing for him.
     
  10. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #435 ttrevett, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
    It would be interesting to count up the number of seats actually sold so far. It might be 1000?

    Did a quick ballpark figure. About 2500-3000. 18 seats across.
     
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  11. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They're going to have to put a tarp over the entire upper bowl and half the lower one. Will probably comp thousands of tickets at the end for optics. Don't know what they were thinking. Couldn't find a stadium with 15k seats or in a city with less going on that would appreciate it?
     
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  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
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  13. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wish they did a cross promotion with the Phoenix Rising and some of the club teams. Right now there's more hype, in the local soccer community, for the upcoming preseason MLS friendlies.
     
  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    As I pointed out to people last year, there are few actual windows between now and GC/LoN. You would say "why don't we try player x" or complain how long the coaching search was going on. They'd respond, "there's always next year." Well, camp cupcake is by definition a limited pool, March window, bam, games that count. We might schedule one or more May prep games but they won't be on a "date." So Berhalter's efforts to right the ship will primarily begin on the eve of Gold Cup itself. Despite tepid recent results that will likely encourage personnel conservatism.

    Personally I think we emphasize winning this sort of stuff too much -- distorting how we shape the team and transition out of older players -- so I'd encourage system implementation, talent evaluation, matching players to roles, over winning. But we seem consumed by wanting to jump to the end results as opposed to work the process to actually get there successfully.
     
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  15. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The first Gold Cup of the cycle is the one where everybody brings their best team, the one we don't win. So barely making semis after having a coach for only half a year wouldn't surprise me. It'd be much less forgivable were it to happen after having an established coach for a full cycle.
     
  16. #8or#6

    #8or#6 Red Card

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 15, 2017
    No, his efforts began the day he knew he was going to be hired, which could have been well before he actually was hired. For convenience, we should mark it as the day Grant Wahl first reported it, September 5, 2018. From then on he should have been watching the side, studying the parts, and thinking about his choices for assistants. He can not only personally scout the European selections, he can study their tendencies via videotape. I think he'll find plenty of things to occupy his time.
    I don't think coaches disagree with that attitude. But fans, especially impatient or biased ones put pressure on the coach to win right away.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #442 juvechelsea, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Looking back 2015 should have set off alarm bells, finished 4th and then Hex we were 5th. 2 of the 3 teams ahead of us in GC in fact finished there in the Hex as well. I agree the first odd year GC is the one teams play to win.

    However, 2015 to me points to a different fallacy than we didn't win. To me it's a bigger sin to play to win and then not do it. It's that we even meant to win the GC, the Copa we hosted, and the playoff game, and made 2 semis and lost the playoff. All other purposes vanished and then we didn't win.

    But the thing is, let's say we win. 2017. We immediately followed that with 1W 2T 1L in September and October 2017 in the Hex. I think there is a decent argument to be made that the personnel conservatism of Arena at GC -- which was successful -- then lost him the Hex. We still talk about should he have brought in some different mids or in particular, backs. He went to GC with a set of CBs and played to win and we won and it actually fooled him. That suggests that playing to win GC may be fool's gold even when it works.

    To me the value of playing to win, as demonstrated by last cycle, is dubious, even when it works. It may affirm poor personnel choices like Omar and Bradley that then don't carry forward. I think unless you have a pretty well cemented unit of fairly young players you might be better off using it to conduct an extended audition of promising players at need positions, don't even kid yourself, and take advancement through the tournament as a sign you are picking the right players for the future, as opposed to winning for the sake of winning.

    I get we like to win but in primary terms only certain wins really matter, qualifying, world cup itself. Maybe Confed Cup. But to me if you win or not can distract you from working on the team when it needs to be under construction. This team in particular they need to figure out who should be on the field together and can fill the roles more than they need to win those particular games. If you identify the right people or suss out where we have holes then you will get the unit together eventually to do that in a lasting way.
     
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  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I think there was a similar assumption Stewart would be moonlighting to the USMNT's benefit between the point he was hired and when he took office and that proved not true, as the coaching search went for months from there. Suggesting he in fact didn't moonlight at all. I take the delay the exact opposite way, that for several months our future coach was in fact focused on the Crew like nothing happened. It may have been a fait accompli that he was out the door to us but I'd be curious how much energy at all was put into our team outside the interview process.

    He may have had some vague concept of where this would be headed, the elevator pitch for the execs, but he definitely wasn't coaching us and I doubt he was watching player tape in bulk to scout, at least not before November. His work in earnest starts now.
     
  19. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    I actually agree. Arena panicked and gave up on younger players to save the GC and win it, at a great cost.

    So it makes sense to use the 2019 GC to try the young guys. Let it be their baptism by fire. It's not like we'd win it even if we brought the "experienced" types.

    Frankly, with the Confederations Cup going the way of the dodo, there's little reason to win Gold Cups any more. Go for it in 2021, when things are more settled and most everybody brings the B team.
     
  20. Borrachin

    Borrachin Member+

    Feb 28, 2006
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Should Mexico have the same attitude? I’m sure their fans would love it that it is ok because the coach has only been there 6 months.
     
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  21. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Mexico doesn't have our problems. We're rebuilding, and need to test the young players. Of course I want to win it, but I can see the logic of those who want to play youth & run the risk of not making the final.

    The alternative would be to play the old guard. Do you want to see them back? Last time we watched them, they looked unable to win the A-team Gold Cup. The only one who could be rescued was Pulisic. The rest, including the likes of Yedlin, Nagbe, Wood, Johnson, Chandler, Altidore and Bradley, had their shot. We could need them again, but why not use these meaningful games to test the guys we have not seen in meaningful games yet?

    I want to see Weston, Sargent, Cannon, Marky, Canouse, Horvath, CCV, Robinson, EPB, Adams, Shaq, Amon, Sabbi, Gall, Weah given their proper shot.
     
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  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #447 juvechelsea, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    I think things get confused on this issue. One, we should play to win each game. But that's once the lineup crosses the lines. There is nothing that says the team can't be pursuing other goals as well while it still tries to win games.

    Two, there may be other goals impacting the lineup that is sent out. Systemic implementation. Talent evaluation. The need to fill particular spots with better players. For example, running out some different left backs is necessary. It may be at the risk of blowing a result if the trial run turns out no good. But the alternative may be reflexively running out Robinson** and he costs you goals and games just the same. The US in recent years seems to struggle to get out of its comfort zone when it has a problem area. It doesn't find a new player. It brings in Villafana and Guzan. It brings back Beasley. And at least one element of that is being scared of taking a true risk. The conservatism thing.

    Three, as I get at with Robinson and got at with GC 2017, what gets called "playing to win" may in fact just be personnel conservatism of dubious value. Teams trying to win as a leading goal may field veteran or usual suspect players. They may be willing to overlook flaws that are eroding that player's game "because experience." Or "because we can't go into a tournament risking things." But maybe you're walking your team down the wrong long term road with the conservatism. Maybe you decide from a conservative GC you can rely on Omar but qualifying proves that false (2017). Maybe rather than fix holes on a cycle scale you try and go back to the well one more time, and then when that hole opens back up are lost for answers, having spent your window to play around on propping up the old guard (2015).

    Four, Sarachan's failures of the past year underline that if the hard work of system implementation and player identification work isn't done then a team that is out there explicitly chasing a type of result may be unable to achieve it in spite of team effort. You can misunderstand the impact of your system. You can misunderstand which players should see the field. It's not enough to say we are playing to win. The team system and talent wise has to be crafted to do so. So you can't separate out playing to win long term from the work that goes on beneath it to make it happen. Just banging your head against the wall thinking you know what you are doing, doesn't do it. It was pretty obvious we were playing to tie or win 1-0 a lot of games this fall. Also pretty obvious it didn't work. You can be results oriented and fail for lack of the team building aspect, or for running out crocked game plans.

    **Robinson is a complicated topic right now because we are struggling for goals and while he has HS defensive skills he also was a leading assists giver for the year.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    The specific mistake I thought he made was the backline. Give or take Yedlin the TnT unit was the Jamaica final team. Not a Miazga fan but there were some backs brought in to that tournament and then they had a 1 game cameo. There were other backs we didn't try. And then in the Hex Villafana and Omar stunk. Big picture you should have known they were crap. But playing to win at GC "validated" those selections. And then it turned out it had proven nothing.

    Some people say the same thing on the mids but I think that was more that Saief and Lletget getting hurt kneecapped improvement that position at a key juncture. The veterans people tend to suggest weren't really upgrades, Benny for example actually played some TnT minutes and nothing changed. The kids were not yet ready or old enough.

    I see two big problems in our selection process. We have gone fanboy on the Yanks Abroad thing. And even domestically there is a hint of pecking order over performance. Keeper is about the only position where the conventional wisdom heir apparent has been shoved aside in favor of the one playing better. The last cycle had its Nagbes and Villafanas living off rep. The return of Bradley and emphasis on Trapp lately makes me wonder if it is out of the system. Particularly when you are in a down ebb you can't afford suboptimal favoritism/pecking order politics. I'm going to go ahead and say that would favor some players like Green who aren't snob favorites. It's a different lineup if it's do they look good when they play, do they produce.
     
  24. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    I'm convinced most of our fans don't actually watch our Yanks Abroad. They see Miazga signed for Chelsea, loaned to a Ligue 1 team and go, "man, he must be good!" They read CCV is signed to the Spuds, EPB for ManCity, Robinson for Everton, and Yedlin starting for Newcastle and think, "wow, we're stacked in defense!"

    In reality they're all rather subpar players, only getting minutes in the second division --except for Yedlin, who plays in the EPL mostly for what he offers in attack. So this is the time to see what they can actually offer, to actually watch them in action in games that are for something.

    A good case study for me was Morales. He was a starter with Fortuna Düsseldorf and people were talking him up as if he were awesome. I wasn't following Fortuna, so I bought into the hype: "why aren't they giving him a chance dang it?"

    Then I started watching. The guy was terrible, Fortuna was basically playing with 10 with him around. They benched him and actually improved. Same with Danny Williams, who got his shot (twice) in the rare occasions he was healthy. Totally lost, the guy was only good for a couple of decent tackles per game but his creativity was nil.

    That's a big problem, I feel. People pencil in players without watching them, just based on the club that owns their contract.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It wasn’t our roster which caused us to lose vs TNT “C” team - it was hubris and a desire to play on our front foot.

    Look at the roster that TNT brought: they were clearly hoping for counters and attacking spaces on the wings and having runners in the box.

    Even if we had fielded our B/C squad, we could and should have easily taken away their space, forcing them to maintain possession and try to score via a build up. Their squad was absolutely not designed to do that and we would have controlled the game (and possession ironically) as their limitations and a crappy field played to our advantage.

    At the very least, it would have been a very boring tied game that led to our qualification. Instead we had an “exciting game” that cost us admission to Russia.
     
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