Camp Cupcake, Jan 2014

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by keller4president, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Kids aren't going to college (for the most part) and playing soccer there in hopes of becoming professional athletes.

    The vast majority of college soccer players know their future lies in a 9 to 5 job.

    The vast majority of college coaches aren't going to be trying to groom and produce pros.

    Guys who are talented enough to be pros for the most part are going to opt to bypass the NCAA, or only play there for a season or two (in many cases).

    (And yes, parents will continue to what their kids to get good and higher educations, and college programs will produce/have players who go on to become pros -- but for the vast majority of all college players, in every sport, they know their first job after college is not going to be as a paid athlete.)
     
  2. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member+

    Dec 16, 1999
    Monterey, Ca
    There are players that want to play college ball just to enjoy the experience. Much like top club players that chose to play high school ball. More social, less pressure. It is a game after all....
     
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  3. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Unless they don't live near an MLS club. There's a huge percentage of the country that isn't covered by MLS academies. A kid from almost anywhere in Upstate New York (where my school largely recruited from) isn't going to be in an MLS academy. That covers Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany, among others. Buffalo and Rochester both have metro populations over 1 million, Syracuse and Albany are both over 600,000. That's a lot of potential professional players who will almost certainly have to go to college to get noticed by MLS clubs.

    I know what you're trying to say, but statements like that neglect the reality of youth soccer development in this country.
     
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  4. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Knowing that this lies in the future isn't going to stop them from chasing the pro dream while they can. If we're talking higher levels of D1 soccer, it's incredibly out of touch to think otherwise.
     
  5. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Certainly, but the (great) majority of players who are playing college soccer realize that they are not actually "chasing the pro dream."

    The "higher levels of D1 soccer" do provide the pros, for the most part.

    But for the most part, the vast majority of college soccer players aren't in "higher levels of D1 soccer."

    College and college soccer are both good things. But they are what they are.
     
  6. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I agree that it is important to have more coverage by DA clubs and MLS clubs and improved scouting networks, I think things are improving and moving in the right direction.

    I believe that Empire United has a relationship with the Revs. And Jordan Allen of Rochester [formerly of the Rhinos and Empire] just signed with RSL as a home grown.
    http://www.empireunitedsa.org/index.html
     
  7. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    #1782 deejay, Feb 12, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
    I don't know. Because it's an EDUCATIONAL institution? Sure I get that pragmatics are everywhere but I don't think that should trump basic ethics. I can't but think that a college coach should have a delight in teaching. Cynical tactics for the sake of the win sounds like a pro thing and doesn't belong in college.
     
  8. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member+

    Dec 16, 1999
    Monterey, Ca
    Coaches don't generally get to keep their jobs unless they win games. It's a survival tactic.
     
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  9. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    That's just shifting the blame from the coaches to the sports director. Same ethical problem. Why would a college only use wins as a metric? This speaks badly of a program IMO.
     
  10. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member+

    Dec 16, 1999
    Monterey, Ca
    Boosters back winners. ADs make big paychecks based on delivering booster donations. ADs are EXPECTED to hang championship banners up in some sports. More banners = more donations. Sad cycle, but coaches are caught in the middle. Development is more important at Academies.
     
  11. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    You make college soccer sound a lot more cutthroat than it is. There are 200 Division I soccer coaches, and each year, only a handful of them lose their jobs over results.

    Almost invariably, the ones that do lose their jobs get fired over long-term issues, not short-term ones. And in the long run, if you recruit good players and help them improve, you'll be rewarded.
     
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  12. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    What is the metric for college coaches and programs helping "good players improve"?

    Is it winning "more" games, or something else?

    Producing more pros?

    Do a lot of pros come out of "non-winning" college programs?
     
  13. COMtnGuy

    COMtnGuy Member+

    Apr 5, 2012
    Higher than you
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it is to early to define what makes top players choose which program in soccer. But I agree it will move towards the "what school will most likely help me make it to next level". Like you hear from the top Football and Basketball players now when they sign their letters of intent.
     
  14. StlDon

    StlDon Red Card

    Sep 17, 2013
    KCMO
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But you're referring to revenue generating sports like football and basketball. Soccer at most Division 1 institutions is a revenue loser. I think deejay is correct in this instance. College soccer is there primarily for the player, not the institution.
     
  15. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    In case anyone is sincere in thinking that MLS is irrelevant to D-I coaches today, here's Elon College's newly released recruiting announcement, just posted by Sandon over in the college forum.



    As we see, the coach has a framed Gabe Latigue MLS jersey mounted prominently on his wall. Not that Latigue managed to stick on a roster for very long, or even managed get into a single game. Doesn't matter. Just getting into MLS was a tremendous reward after four years of sustained effort, a memorable accomplishment for both the player and the coach.
     
  16. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it has already moved towards that. Top prospects pick schools with good programs. Just look at the schools of players selected in the Superdraft year after year.

    Would it be nice is every school in division 1 was committed to playing the game in a way that would help long term player development instead of just winning? Yeah, it would. But there are 203 division 1 programs, meaning something like 1000 kids are graduating from division 1 programs every year. There only are 570 current MLS roster spots (19 teams*30 spots). Even with expansion and minor league affiliates, the vast majority of division 1 players will never play a single pro game.

    So while I get ArsenalMetro's frustration, I don't think we should really be expecting schools like Colgate to be focusing on pro development. Most top prospects already can and do filter to more renowned programs.
     
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  17. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Our 2014 World Cup roster is likely to include guys who played at places like Chico State, Furman, West Virginia and Rhode Island. Our 2010 roster included guys who played at places like Illinois-Chicago, Cal Poly Pomona, and State Farm Community College.

    I sure hope coaches in those places weren't going f*** you to their pro ambitions.

    As ArsenalMetro pointed out, Colgate's coach was able to attract some talented and ambitious kids for a while. He also achieved good results for a while. But more recently, his program has taken a nosedive. Perhaps his failure to help the kids develop came home to roost?
     
  18. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good point - there will always be late bloomers or overlooked players that weren't recruited by top programs, which is why it's a good thing those programs exist. And it would certainly be great for all programs to care about developing players.

    But I think our system is changing. A greater percentage of top prospects are bypassing college all together. And the top prospects that do go to college (whether they be MLS homegrowns or not) are gravitating mostly to top programs. And I think top programs are much more committed to playing attractive soccer now than they used to be.
    Entirely possible. If a coach fails to develop players, not only are other programs likely to beat him in the short term, but in the long term the recruiting of the program is going to suffer.

    Admittedly I don't know much about Colgate or the players there when ArsenalMetro was at school. But it did strike me as strange that he lamented only 4 players there attempting to have pro careers in recent years. For a Patriot League program, that seems like it should be on the higher end of the spectrum of expectations .
     
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  19. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    I agree with almost everything you've said, but it's worth noting that gravitating to top programs doesn't necessarily cut other programs out of the loop.

    As an example, look at UNC. Very few of their recent freshmen have gone on to stick in MLS, but their incoming transfers are a different story. Guys like Matt Hedges (three years at Butler), Michael Farfan (two years at Cal State Fullerton), Stephen McCarthy (three years at Santa Clara), and Jalil Anibaba (three years at Santa Clara) have all used UNC as a springboard to the pros.

    Admittedly, that's an extreme example, but it's not a completely isolated one. Iirc, most of Louisville's starters last year had transferred in, and nearly half of UCLA's did.
     
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  20. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Did I mention Colgate by name? I'm creeped out. ;) EDIT: I guess Patriot League and Upstate New York is sort of a dead giveaway.

    My issue with Colgate and Erik Ronning isn't with the number of players being brought through to the pro ranks. It's the fact that so many have gotten to that level even with the attitude of the coach being so dismissive. It makes me wonder about squandered potential. If Alex Weekes, Steve Miller, etc. could play pro ball when playing such a garbage style of soccer for four years, what could they have done if they played a good system?
     
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  21. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This x1000

    How many scouts do you think come to places like Asheville, Savannah, Mobile, Pensacola, Jackson? There is no telling how much talent we are losing out on.
     
  23. COMtnGuy

    COMtnGuy Member+

    Apr 5, 2012
    Higher than you
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lets not forget the youth tourney's that do exist, heck the big one here in colorado pulls in over 480 national youth teams (Boys and Girls) so there is ways of scouting teams that travel.
     
  24. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Porter switched Yedlin from RW to RB at a U18 camp when Yedlin was struggling to make an impact as an attacker.
     
  25. COMtnGuy

    COMtnGuy Member+

    Apr 5, 2012
    Higher than you
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep here's story showing exactly this

    After starring with different regional sides in Minnesota, Miller graduated from high school a semester early and left for Creighton University in January 2011, a school which has a strong history of producing professional soccer players.

    “It was a really good fit,” Miller said. “The coaches there are really good at developing players. Once I got there I was really committed to trying to make a professional career out of it.”

    http://www.goal.com/en-ca/news/4175...w-eric-miller-landed-with-the-montreal-impact
     

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