Cameron Carter-Vickers at Tottenham

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by BostonRed, Aug 13, 2014.

  1. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    If the guy who I claimed created a straw man wants to discuss that, I'll go ahead and respond, otherwise I'm just going to see myself out of this dumb discussion that is diverging away from the topic of Carter-Vickers. I'm not going to take the time to get into attacks on other posters. I come here to discuss soccer. This discussion is done from my end.
     
  2. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    United States
    On the bench:
     
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  3. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    United States
    http://sbisoccer.com/2017/04/pulisic-carter-vickers-among-nominees-for-golden-boy-award

    Christian Pulisic of Borussia Dortmund and Cameron Cater-Vickers of Tottenham have both been nominated for Tuttosport’s European Golden Boy award for 2017. The award is considered one of the most prestigious awards for talented young players in European leagues, with previous winners such as Wayne Rooney, Lionel Messi, and Sergio Aguero earning the trophy since its 2003 establishment.
     
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  4. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    United States
     
  5. bballshawn

    bballshawn Member+

    Feb 5, 2014
    Delaware
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    God dammit
     
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  6. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    United States
    New profile:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-UK

    U.S. international striker Bobby Wood typically wins his battles. The 24-year-old uses his explosive frame to fight off defenders and force past them on his way to goal. He rarely gets knocked down.

    But at a U.S. training camp in Ohio in November, Wood spent a lot of time on the deck. So much so that his teammates made a running joke of it. "Bobby, how many times you end up on the ground today?" they would ask him.

    More surprising than Wood’s plight was the man putting the hits in: Tottenham’s Cameron Carter-Vickers. The defender was attending his first national team camp and relishing his duel with one of the squad’s most aggressive players.
     
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  7. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Country:
    United States
    Any f'ing word about the injury?
     
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  8. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Somerville, MA
    Country:
    United States
    It's England, so I'm guessing the diagnosis is that he "picked up a knock".
     
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  9. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Country:
    United States
    http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/the9...ers-desperately-needs-a-loan-away-from-spurs/

    In any case, by now it’s beyond obvious that Carter-Vickers has a USMNT career ahead. In fact, it rankled most everyone who’s seen him play that he isn’t already cap-tied.

    More to the everyday matter at hand, though, is Carter-Vickers’ status at his home club, Tottenham. It’s where he spends the vast majority of his time, and it would seem he’s hit the club’s first team periphery at a fairly awkward time. At least for center backs. At the moment, Spurs is in a title sprint for the Premier League and boasts arguably the best center back pairing in the league in Toby Alderweireld and Jan Vertonghen, the Low County Boys with World Cup experience among them both. Carter-Vickers has been lauded by Spurs coach Mauricio Pochettino as having future PL success practically graven on his forehead, but unlocking the position won’t be easy.

    I’ll even go a step further and say it’s impossible. So long as Vertonghen and Alderweireld exist as Spurs players, Carter-Vickers will never play. Not in games that matter, and not consistently barring injuries ahead of him.

    In any case, it doesn’t look as though the balance in the middle of the defense will change anytime soon, at least not for the 2017-18 campaign. Which means it’s time for Carter-Vickers to throw off the bow lines and set sail for a new (temporary) home. He needs a loan.
     
  10. wellno

    wellno Member

    Jul 31, 2016
    It's become received wisdom that a loan is the best thing for a young player not getting game time but really wide scale loaning of players was a relatively recent experiment and there hasn't really been a whole lot of evidence that it's the best or only path for progression. It's certainly not a one size fits all solution.

    Tottenham are amongst a growing number of clubs now choosing to keep more of their best prospects in house. It worked just fine for Harry Winks.
     
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  11. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Aug 5, 2008
    Madison, WI/Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    Did it though? He's finally getting first-team opportunities at 21, and he wasn't exactly lighting up the field while he was out there.

    I think it's important for CCV to get game time, and I'd like to see him go out on loan. There's a benefit to working under Pocchetino (sp?), Alderweireld (sp?), and Vertonghen (sp?, god damnit Spurs, have easier names to spell), but for a kid who only has 360 minutes of professional experience, more playing time at a decent level is more beneficial. IMO, of course.
     
  12. wellno

    wellno Member

    Jul 31, 2016
    lol. Take your arsenal blinkers off.
     
  13. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Winks was doing a very good job.
     
  14. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member

    Jul 2, 2007
    I've been wondering about the loan practice as well, maybe with CBs in particular. With a more attacking player or even an outside back, it seems like teams are more willing to throw loanees out for 10-15 minutes at the end of games and see if they can bring something to the table. You just don't have that same sub pattern with CBs, and it would seem like the only way a team would break up a CB combo of guys they've permanently signed is in case of injury (as happened with Miazga) or if the loanee is just head and shoulders above the veterans they already have.
     
  15. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
     
  16. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Aug 5, 2008
    Madison, WI/Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    He had 1 goal and 1 assist in 1,300 minutes of play before being injured. He got overhyped because he's young and English, and because no one had really heard of him.

    Maybe he turns out to be great, but I wouldn't yet put him forward as evidence that Spurs hanging on to players rather than loaning them out is paying dividends. That's doubly true when you look further up the field at Harry Kane, who had four different loan spells and is pretty clearly England's best striker.
     
  17. wellno

    wellno Member

    Jul 31, 2016
    What a stupid way to judge a central midfielder. N'Golo Kante has 1 goal and 1 assist in 2779 minutes of play this season. Maybe he's shit, or maybe sometimes you have to look a bit deeper than goals and assists to see what a play brings to the table.

    His time at Milwall aside Kane's loan spells were mediocre, you're giving those loans undue credit because it suits your argument but, again, I bet you haven't looked deeper. He spent a full a season on the fringes of the Tottenham squad before he was at the level where he was able to break into their team. If they'd chosen to send him back on loan to the Championship again he would have stagnated (that's where Chelsea have gone wrong with so many of their prospects). He would have learned way more in his season on the fringes at Tottenham than he did the season before partaking in disappointing loans at Leicester and Norwich.
     
  18. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    Aug 5, 2008
    Madison, WI/Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Country:
    United States
    You're just a delight to debate with.

    Harry Winks didn't impress me all that much. Full stop. He looks like any number of other young English midfielders who get overhyped and then amount to be nothing more than serviceable professionals at best.

    Harry Kane's loan spells don't "suit my argument," they're just facts. You're assuming wildly that if he had continued to go on loan that he wouldn't have developed. There is literally no way that you could possibly know that. If you think that loans aren't a good way to develop young players, that's totally fine. But to say that spending time on the fringes of the first team is somehow integral to rising to a regular first-team place is ridiculous, especially when you're talking about Spurs. Kyle Walker went from a loan spell at Villa to immediately playing 37 league games the next season. Danny Rose spent a season at Sunderland before immediately playing 30 games in all competitions the next season.

    Point is, your critique is garbage, and doesn't take into account anything related to Spurs's historical development of players. "I bet you haven't looked deeper" into that.

    Anyway, this is supposed to be about CCV, and my overarching point is that there's probably a benefit to getting him some professional game time since he has only played in 4 games for Spurs.
     
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  19. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    Winks isn't Kante and isn't even close. I hate when people use that argument for a player. Just because Kante has an incredible influence on games without impacting the stat sheet doesn't mean Winks does as well.
     
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  20. El_Mittinho_ii

    May 31, 2015
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Doesn't take into account that we play 3 at the back a lot of the time, typically Vertonghen - Alderweireld - Dier. Wimmer (or Ben Davies) is decent cover for the left sided position, but we don't have another right sided option - when either Alderweireld or Dier have been missing (or Dier covering Wanyama in midfield) we've been going back to a 4, with an extra forward playing because that's where our cover is strongest.

    If, and it's a big if, we stick with the back 3 more or less full time next season (and it suits everyone except perhaps Son who is the poor sod left out up front despite being brilliant), there are a lot of games to be had as the right sided centre back - potentially as first choice cover for Alderweireld, Wanyama and Dier (with ED being the one to move in the first 2 cases). The point to be made that the article misses is not that CCV must move to find game time, it's the question of whether Pochettino thinks he's ready to take on 20-30 or so of the available 150+ appearances for those 3 positions.

    IMO it would be an easy and obvious yes if we could guarantee which games those would be - the cup games, the home game against a bottom club to rest one of the stars. What muddies the waters slightly is the thought of a cruciate ligament snapping the day after the transfer window shuts, could CCV be trusted to take on a full time role in a title chasing team? Probably not, but then the option of a back 4 would come back into play.

    Worth the risk I reckon.
     
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  21. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    I hate when people see two players' names in a post and automatically think the poster is equating the two.

    He didn't even compare them - just used Kante as an example to say goals/ assists don't always tell the whole story. He even said "maybe he's shit."
     
  22. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    He's implying that Winks can have that sort of influence without influencing the stat sheet. He doesn't.
     
  23. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    That's your assumption. In any case he doesn't say Winks is Kante or close to Kante like you suggested he did.
     
  24. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    It's the context of the quote and what he's quoting. His response to ArsenalMetro saying Winks had 1 goal/1 assist in x amount of minutes was to invoke Kante's name to state a player doesn't have to score/assist to make a difference. Kante can do that, Winks can't. Why is this even an argument? Christ.
     
  25. Rabbi Keane

    Rabbi Keane Member

    Aug 13, 2003
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Mousa Dembele has played 1500 minutes more than Winks, yet stand with the same single goal and only one assist more. Luka Modric had similiar stats when at Spurs, even at Real Madrid he's been 5 seasons and scored 8 times in the league. No one of them are there to score or make assists. They are there to bring the ball to the assist makers. And Winks does that well with his over 90% pass successrate - which is 6th best of all players in the Premier League. This is the first time i've ever seen anyone say they haven't been impressed with Winks so far. Opponent fans have pointed him out regulary, and there was already lot of debate whether he should be called up for the England senior team.
     
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