C. Ronaldo, best WF of all-time?

Do you rate Suker higher than CR7?

 

Suker is not on the list, but no as his club career is not enough to place him higher despite his excellent WC98 performance.

 

I couldn't have said it better mate.

So from an objective point, do you still rank C.Ronaldo in around top 40?

 

you're right ... in FW category (too many )

But CR7 last great season as (close) Winger was 2008/9 with ManU
At Real, he became pretty much a goal scoring wide FW (like Jairzinho at WC70, or Garrincha at WC62 or Robben for bayern ... or Messi in his early Barca days_)

 

right ...and agree
Plus Suker was more like a FW/Striker not even a wide FW and far from winger

 

CR7 would be in same breath of Ronaldinho Rivelino Jairzinho Rivaldo Stoitchkov Laudrup ... (35-55+)
below the likes Romario Baggio Basten Ronaldo Muller Zidane and Messi ... (12-35)

 

Concerning Stoichkov, I don't buy your argument, at all.

Being part of a legendary team is not as big of an individual achievement as you are making it out to be, regardless of how fulcrum he was to that team. If that is the case, then the same argument can be made for a player like Sergio Busquets, who was an integral part of a an even greater Barcelona team. Although, if you want to attempt to argue that Sergio Busquet's club career is greater than CR7's, please do so. I have my popcorn ready. The Dream Team did not exist solely because of Stoichkov so your argument is poor. To think that 'being part of a legendary' team would mean you automatically had just as great a club career as a player who has won 2 Champions Leagues for two different teams, only player to win 2 European Golden Shoes in 2 different leagues, multiple league titles, 3 Ballon D'ors, will end his career Top 2 in goalscoring in the Champions League etc. etc. is flat out comical, particu

Additionally, that 'Dream Team' did not have a rival, domestically or in Europe, that Ronaldo has had in the form of Barcelona. You take Barcelona out of the picture and let me know how he, and the teams he played for, look, in terms of titles, by comparison. Not even considering what Real Madrid would have won if Barcelona was not at that level, Manchester United would have been the first team to win back-to-back Champions Leagues had they won in 2009 (which they would have if Barcelona was at any level lower than what they were). Would that not have made them a 'legendary' team? Hint: It would have. And who would have been the undoubted main piece of that team? I'll let you work that one out.

Suker had an even greater World Cup than Stoichkov did. The only thing stopping him from leading CROATIA to a World Cup final was Thuram's 2 goals. His only 2 goals in his entire career for France. After Suker scored in the semi-final, the odds of Thuram scoring 2 goals in that game are less than 0.007%. Yet, how ridiculous would you sound if you tried saying that Suker is an all-time great? He was insanely close to leading Croatia to a final with Brazil, a team that France smacked in the final. I'm not sure people sometimes realize how close Croatia was to winning a World Cup. And a majority of that is due to Suker. Not to mention, he was in the 1996 Euro team of the tournament. Suker's international career > Stoichkov's.

The reason that these players have these one-off tournaments where they play above to well-above their normal level is because their performances are outliers. You should look up the term. It is the reason that players like Forlan, Suker, James Rodriguez, etc. prove season after season that they are nothing more than 'good to great' players and then go on to have legendary tournament performances. Tournaments that happen every few years, and not every season. You combine good-enough talent with the right factors and that is what happens.

 

First arguably they are eqaully good for their NT and WC - nothing showed either was better than another in NT

Secondly; call Suker and SToitchkov = outliers is like calling Messi and CR7 = best ever = clueless

For your info:
1- Suker had a great GPG for Croatia : 45goals/69games and that matched well (or close) to his WC98.

2- Stoitchkov had ~ 0.5 goals for club and also got close 0.5GPG for his NT = consistent (mo excuse with weaker team)

While you tried to derive the term "outliers " for Suker SToitchkov ?
what do you call MEssi and CR7 in NT?
Let me help" the OUTSIDER? yeah ... they all missed their club team mates LOL

 

What a bunch of self-serving bullcrap, but that's completely to be expected from you regarding C Ronaldo.

First things first, Cruyff's Barcelona had a rival that is considered at the level of the Barcelona of 06-13 and one of the greatest teams of all time, which would be the AC Milan of Sacchi and later Capello. Perhaps you may have heard of them?

Stoichkov's WC performance individually was better than Suker's, as he carried Bulgaria into the semifinals despite having really two or three other players of quality alongside him: Balakov, Lechkov and Hubchev. By the way, a lesser team than Portugal at WC14 but yet Stoichkov somehow didn't hide behind it. Beyond that, Stoichkov led the team not just with his game but with his temperament and pride, well beyond what Suker could do in WC98. Also, Stoichkov's goals against Mexico and Germany are also of a higher class than any of Suker's during WC98. All of this makes Stoichkov's WC94 performance a level higher than Suker's , who let's not forget, had players of the level of Boban, Prosinecki, Jarni, Simic, Boksic, Stanic and Tudor alongside him. By the way, Stoichkov also made the Euro96 team of the tournament. In terms of his contribution to Barcelona's Dream Team, he won the first three consecutive Ligas and CL with only Laudrup, Koeman and Guardiola as truly great teammates (compare that to CR7 having Tevez, Rooney, Giggs, Scholes, and Ferdinand at ManU or having DiMaria, Bale, Casillas, Alonso and Modric at Real Madrid). When Romario joined, Barca won one more league and made the CL final but their legacy was already established - with Stoichkov being their overall leading scorer in both the league and in Europe during these golden years.

As for mentioning Busquets, defensive players are measured differently than offensive ones, not an honest argument in the least.

Finally, you can say all you want that outliers shine at the WC, tell me were Maradona, Cruyff, Garrincha, Pele, Eusebio, G Muller, Romario, Baggio, Zidane, Ronaldo9, Rivaldo also "outliers"? What I do find to be a statistical trend is for a so-called legendary player to never impose themselves in an international tournament over the course of six attempts. For the likes of the players mentioned in this paragraph, that would be an outlier indeed.

 

Just ask a simple question to him to explain the Irony:
- CR7 scored 54goals /55 games at UCL with Real Team mates = ~1GPG (wow)
- Yet he barely scored 3goals in 3 WC's after 14games played = 0.2GPG ! another bigger WOW (a ka without his 15 worldclass at Real as excuses)

 

1) My post regarding CR7 is self-serving? You don't know what that word means.
2) Sacchi's great Milan ended in 1990, the same year Stoichkov joined Barcelona, after they were banned from the Euro Cup in 90-91. Additionally, Cappello's side was not a 'legendary' side in the form that Barcelona 06-13 was. They were a great team but not legendary. No legendary team loses a CL final against that Marseille team.
3) Your rambling in your third paragraph is typical. He led his team 'with temperament and pride, well beyond what Suker could do in WC98'. What the hell does that even? Is that an actual argument you are making? Is that the same temperament he had when he stomped on a referee and was banned for months?
4) Suker scored in every knockout stage game, including a game-winner in the 3rd place game against a very good Netherlands team. Bulgaria got smacked 4-0 by Sweden. But I'm expecting you to tell me how Bulgaria was too good for the 3rd place game and didn't care or some other typical drivel of yours. In the semis, Suker at least got his country into the lead against the hosts. Italy had their game comfortable by the 30' minute mark.

I was going to continue but you're too dumb to keep wasting my time with. Only a serious moron can go on to argue in favor for Stoichkov by claiming he had worse teammates than both Suker & CR7, and then go on to list players that succeeded in the World Cup in which they all had undoubtedly better teammates than CR7 has EVER had for Portugal. Your comment concerning Busquets is so filled with holes I'll let just stop right here.

I have never once seen you entertain anyone else's ideas that contrast with your own. There is quite literally no point in having a discussion with you as you clearly believe you are correct all the time. I'm sure that has worked out very well for you in life. For now, let's do each other a favor and never reply to one another's posts again.

 

You are a freaking imbecile who will crap and piss on any WC great to defend the great C Ronaldo - just can't accept that he SUCKS at the WC, now can you?

I'll destroy every single one of your arguments just because a) I can and b) you're a douchebag:

1) You don't know what that word means.

Oh wow, that's the epitome of wit! Portuguese humor, it has conquered the world!!

2) Sacchi's great Milan ended in 1990, the same year Stoichkov joined Barcelona, after they were banned from the Euro Cup in 90-91. Additionally, Cappello's side was not a 'legendary' side in the form that Barcelona 06-13 was. They were a great team but not legendary. No legendary team loses a CL final against that Marseille team.

Yeah, AC Milan was legendary in 1990 but stopped being so suddenly in 1991, because that's how club football works.

3) Your rambling in your third paragraph is typical. He led his team 'with temperament and pride, well beyond what Suker could do in WC98'. What the hell does that even? Is that an actual argument you are making? Is that the same temperament he had when he stomped on a referee and was banned for months?

Of course that is an actual argument, some players play with pride for the country of their family and rise to the occasion when called upon. But you dismissing this argument may just mean it's not C Ronaldo's fault as an individual that he chokes for his country, maybe Portugal is just a country full of pissers who don't even understand this characteristic.

And nothing to say about the rest of the argument, I see.

4) Suker scored in every knockout stage game, including a game-winner in the 3rd place game against a very good Netherlands team. Bulgaria got smacked 4-0 by Sweden. But I'm expecting you to tell me how Bulgaria was too good for the 3rd place game and didn't care or some other typical drivel of yours. In the semis, Suker at least got his country into the lead against the hosts. Italy had their game comfortable by the 30' minute mark.

And Suker scored a pk off a blatant dive against an aging Romania while Stoichkov scored an absolutely brilliant goal against a strong Mexican team in their respective round of 16 matches. Also, Italy may have had a comfortable game by the 30 minute mark, but by minute 45 it wasn't so comfortable anymore, and they ended up scrambling for clearances to uphold their victory in the last 15 minutes of the match, not such a comfortable win after all.

The funny thing is had I written Suker should place ahead of C Ronaldo and Stoichkov below, you would be making exactly the opposite argument, hypocrite.

 

1- CR7 FAILED to prove as a "self-serving" (whatever he meant) w/o Real or ManU teammates = fact

2- For me I would say Stoitchkov >= Suker for their whole career (but just a tiny gap)

 

1. Garrincha
2. C. Ronaldo
3. Best
4. Matthews

in that order…

 

in term of "career" achievement (if we ignore other details) then yes I can aggree CR7 > Best
But in SKILLS only? NAAh

CR7 has a lot to learn from best but Best could not leanr anything from CR7 - oufff ... perhaps DIVING? LOL

 

in term of "career" achievement (if we ignore other details) then yes I can ag

I had said including career trophies and longevity and peak: I can agree CR7 > Best (earlier) if we do not consider anything else!

Just for fun:
Best talent 9.3/10 + Career achievement 8.5/10 = 8.9/10
CR7 talent 8.8/10 + Career achievement 9.25/10 = 9/10

Compared to the golden rule of :
Pele talent 10/10 + Career achievement 10/10 = 10/10
Maradona talent 9.8/10 + Career achievement 9.5/10 = 9.75/10

 

I think Best would need a higher rating around 1971 Peru probably:
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy71.html
This is in chronological order I think so the clips near the end would be relevant (the lob against Tottenham was in 1971 for example):

 

very good call

I do not know how Peru rated Best so LOW in 71 and 72 seasons ? He shoudl get at least 7/10 there ( with 49goals+ many assists in 105games 2 seasons offcicial games as Playmaker/winger = very very good)

Note ManU were so DEEP in form (#8 in teh league of those 2 seasons 71 and 72)

It was like putting CR7 to play for New Castles or Aston villa and see if he could score more than 15goals? CR7 was so lucky to play for 2 best teams of their best time ever = so different!
============================================

as said, rating is purely "personal" and BIASED as human nature!

 

I agree 100%

In terms of achievement & longevity, CR7 tops Best.
But as far as raw talent goes, well George Best is up there with the very best

 

Hmm, I see where you are coming from Peru. The ratings you awarded still look a bit low, but it's a shame RoyoftheRovers hasn't posted for a while as I'm sure he'd have the best insight in terms of first hand experience of those seasons.

Some of those plays and goals around that time were certainly spectacular though, and for a winger (and sometimes more of a number 10/inside forward...as far as I know not a central midfielder in those seasons) he was scoring at a pretty good rate.