While it's not exactly high praise for a team relative to the full membership of this year's EPL, in the context of someone saying they are clearly the worst team in the EPL, I think I am justified in seeing the glass as half full, given the game in hand.
For an accountant you seem to care little about actual numbers. For one thing, I haven't seen a darned person on here cite what Cooper actually made for Man U. Everyone seems to assume it was big money, but who knows? Ponder Dempsey vs Cooper for a second. Let's charitably grant Cooper $200K a year for, say, three years as a Man U reservist. I have no idea if it's even that high, but just for kicks, let's use that. He only gets $50K each year when he goes back to MLS. That comes to $700K in salary over five years. Sounds like a lot. You want him to take the money and run. OK, Dempsey goes the other way to EPL. For 3 years he makes $80K, which is a relative pittance, then the next two he makes, I dunno, $500K a year for Fulham. The first three years net him a mere quarter mill, which is what Cooper would approach each year as an apprentice with Man U. However, the kicker is those half millions, which, summed, give Dempsey $1.24 million in total salary over 5 years. Long story short: it's not how you start, it's how you finish, and the salary you peak at. A greedy kid can take the nice salary from Man U (assuming it is nice), but that may be the best money they ever see. Someone playing for nothing for MLS may work up to a great wage, building up over time. Now, people will bring up Spector, and say he probably makes OK money, and that's fair enough, but the question then is if you will be Spector and stay in the money league or whether you will be Cooper playing for average working people's wages in a matter of years. There are no guarantees. Now, people will say MLS has no guarantees, either, but the truth is you will get guaranteed PT here, and you will certainly rise and fall by your efforts. Whereas, Kenny Cooper could score as much as he wanted with the reserves and not really control his first team soccer future in Manchester.
Shalrie Joseph is worth at least a million to Celtic. Shall I keep digging up MLS transfer fees and offers that are bigger than Spector's, or will you acknowledge what I'm getting at? That half a million is child's play and not even what MLS players have gotten? DeMerit has also not been transferred by Watford, his first "real" team, so mocking his transfer value vis-a-vis Spector is kind of like saying cleats you've actually worn have more wear than cleats you haven't. Whoop de do.
That's good hindsight analysis but you don't make decisions in hindsight. 3 or 4 years ago Kenny Cooper was a high school kid from texas just wanting to make some money playing soccer. He has an offer in hand from a college for a few thousand a year or from Sir Alex and ManU for lots of thousands. Few know exactly what reserve players are making but I think your figure is probably close.So from a purely financial perspective it's the perfect decision. Or think of it this way, you just pointed out that US soccer's player of the year has a smaller bank account than a slightly younger kid who still has never suited up for the team. One of the top world cup players in America, MIGHT, make more in his career than a guy who hasn't ever been capped. It's still very much up in the air for Cooper and Dempsey's earning potential as Cooper looks like a solid candidate for a future transfer back as well. You do understand that Cooper is doing really well in MLS right? This is certainly a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush. In US athletics I have seen less than 1% of players ever turn down more money in favor of anything. You can only play for a few years so you have to take the best out there. Also economically or emotionally it's not what you peak at that matters most. Economically you want as much money early as possible and as much total money as possible. For tax purposes you absolutely don't want a few really high years accomponied by alot of middle class wages. Emotionally you want it all, but your certainly the cool kid on the block if you make flashy money as a teenager. Again I contend you're making unfair comparisons matching up a guy like Cooper against Dempsey. You need to match up guys who were similar talents at the time they chose one path or the other and you can't do much of it. You've got the u17's of 2001 Donovan vs. Beasley who both have had their ups and downs but Donovan's always earned more. Or 2005 U17's Spector vs. Gaven (Spector wins by far). Or borderline U20's from 2005 like Nguyen and Rogers who are already making serious money vs. Charlie Davies or Randi Patterson (you may ask who but he was just as close as Rogers) and their potential money. There aren't many fair comparissons out there where there were very similar talents with different career paths but i'm trying very hard to show you, using the scientific method of controlled experiments, that it's a good idea to take the european money instead of MLS's typical garbage contracts, IF, money is a key decision making focus or motivation.
OK, fine, Spector had 3. That's still 5 to 3, and none in 2006. Spector seems to be the one player in the world who is never available. Either hurt or playing club, like no one else has commitments. Always has an excuse. Or maybe that's just his supporters. Worth noting: he was only even on the bench once in 2006, and that was the same set of Poland-Germany games where Pearce was capped. That's right, Pearce played against Germany. Those talking about how he was mere roster filler in the winter camp need to explain how he got minutes in a game that had the most rosterees short of the warm up series. THey also might acknowledge that the Danish season freed Pearce in the same way England supposedly bound Spector. Germany was the most serious friendly all year, IMO, Pearce was rostered and appeared, and Spector had already been sent back. Spector's people might also trouble themselves to explain to me how Spector was going to jump the queue when he hadn't even had a cap all year, before getting hurt in April after the last friendly. After. Pearce was not all that great in the games he was in, my point is not to argue he was, but Spector's claim to fame in '06 was as an unused sub against Poland. He was probably closer to frostbite than the field. No offense, but where I come from, if one guy is a scrub but gets PT, and another guy gets no PT, he's likely even scrubby-er. Of course, from y'all's direct link to Arena you know that an uncapped player in the tournament year was destined for camp and the roster, and you must be proud to have such access. But, judging by what I actually saw, Pearce at least got a try out, if one he flubbed, and Spector was given an Adu-esque cup of coffee introducing him to everyone but granting him no real shot. This might owe to the fact that Spector's Man U lark had limited his first team experience, while Pearce had piled up first team games in Denmark. This might eventually play out in Spector's favor over time, but the 2006 diagnosis seems to have been that one player was ready for a shot and the other guy was ready to carry the team bags.
Hey you finally got it right, congrats. Wow, you really are dense. Ever heard of the FIFA calendar? The Poland match was the only open international date before the Cup. That was the only match for the English based players (minus Convey because Reading had runaway with the title by the end of March) and Gooch, and Beasley... Arena gave Lewis the minutes because that was the only available match and Lewis was Arena's 1st choice at LB. Another unbelievable statement. I'd say you can't be serious, but I guess I'm getting used to your rediculous comments. The Germany match was a rag-tag lineup because so few players were available from both Europe and MLS. Look at that freaking lineup. Wolff in the midfield and Arena chose to play a centerback at leftback over Pearce. Pearce was only called in because Lewis, Spector, Bocanegra, and Dunivant weren't available. Pearce only got minutes at the end of that match because Gibbs went out injured. The April friendly was another game that wasn't on a FIFA date. Can't you figure out why there weren't any players there from Europe. Spector was ahead of Pearce from his late 2005 play. He was head and shoulders above Pearce. Arena was not limiting his roster to 2006 performers, look at EJ and JOB's selections. You seem to be the only person who thinks that Arena limited his player selection exclusively to 2006 performance. That's silly. You truely are a raving lunatic. Spector was capped a full year before Pearce. Spector was given a real shot and was even chosen over Pearce when they were both selected for the Scotland match. Spector was on Arena's radar and had made a better impression than Pearce did. You really need to go back and read Arena's statements because your posts are flat out ignorant. The fact that you want to limit player selections just to the 2006 games is irrational at best. You are not going to convince anyone with this foolish premiss. No one is buying it. You really need to go back and read the reports and try to educate yourself. So much of what you've posted on here is so out of touch with reality it's beyond explanation.
The word is that Cooper made £125,000 per year for 3 years. He was never going to get anything even remotely close to that here. His other offer was playing at SMU. Hmmmm ManU and almost $250K per year or SMU? Tough choice And how is Cooper worse off for going to England first and then coming back to MLS. He certainly can go back to England in the future. I obviously can't speak for you but I'm sure that almost all American soccer players who want to go pro would love to go to ManU, get top level training, and earn about $700,000 over three years. You'd have to be crazy to think that SMU was a better option.
If they had some sort of qualities they would have been picked up by one of the better scandinavian team and not play in the crap teams in which most of them play.
unless his contract was due to expire soon, a player going from a third tier team like Oldham to a premiership team would probably be their best player, and as such would probably command a higher fee than £500,000. A player going from a second tier team like Ipswich definitely would.
When I was in junior high school, it was the late 70's and I was growing up in a redneck part of new jersey at that point. Like everyone else at the school, I hated disco. Nevertheless, a friend and I use to scrawl disco graffitti on desks and walls, like "Burn Baby Burn -- Disco Inferno!!!!" and the like to get responses from the other kids. So, we'd get back at the desk the next day and the response would be "disco sucks, I'm going to kill you". We'd laugh our heads off for eliciting these responses, getting people so riled up. So usually we'd respond with something like "Kill me, or ' you can Ring My Bell'", or "don't 'FREAK OUT, SO FREAK, SO CHIC'". It drove kids absolutely bonkers. I feel that in reading and responding to this thread, I'm getting my karmic come uppance. because I simply can't believe that Vicious is actually serious. This is THE DUMBEST series of posts I have ever seen, with no rhyme or reason, and yet, he keeps baiting me, and others who frankly understand the european system better than me, into long refutations so that we may show him the obvious. He is repeatedly shown how his argument (if you can call it that) is wrong, not just as a matter of opinion but with obvious facts, and he shifts, starting down a new irrational, loony tunes trail that will take people two to three pages to refute after he submits a couple of new completely irrational theories and non-facts to "back" his new lunacy up. His final stand at the end of each new strand of argument is the messianic maverick stance: The "I am just trying to tear down the walls of conventional football wisdom in the united states so that light may be shed for us, the average soccer fan." And claims this superior wisdom because he played in college. Vicious, if this is all a big joke, it is pure genius. Even I didn't have the nerve to claim superior wisdom in my disco graffitti. However, if you are at all serious, you are the true champion of a long line of nut jobs who have graced these boards, then left the scene from. Either way, congratulations.
Y'all ought to be ashamed of yourselves with the ad hominems. Since you can't beat my argument, because even Mourinho agrees with me (notice no one debates that part anymore), you just rip on me personally, as though my personality has nothing to do with the argument that Mourinho agrees with me on. I don't get how he can be right and me wrong saying the same thing. I think it's raving lunacy to believe that an player uncapped this year was "on the radar" more than someone Arena actually brought in, played, and even started repeatedly. I'm sorry, but you don't even have to have played U-10 (much less anything above that), to know that a player the coach won't even bring off the bench is seen as lesser than one who is an occasional substitute. I demand an apology for the FIFA Calendar comment. Keller, Berhalter, Dolo, Gibbs, Convey, Marcus, Pearce, and Feilharber all managed to evade the "implications" of the FIFA calendar and play Germany. Hence, the assertion that I am something approximating brain dead regarding the calendar when the calendar did not have the effects you suggest is malicious and indifferent to the actual facts. You can take it back any time. I'm going to repeat myself: how do you expect to be picked when you are never played? He was not played even when he was available, which is kind of like how he was uncapped before he was hurt. His availability and injury seem to be excuses for someone the coach couldn't be bothered to put on the field after late 2005. Even the MLS scrubs you detest for their availability at least managed to see the field, eg, Freddy Adu. Your argument might actually have a leg to stand on if he'd seen five minutes against Poland, but he didn't.
Just like Freddy Adu is headed off to Man U any minute now? I won't hold my breath. I think my point is made and concreted that Cooper might actually have made more money building towards Man U instead of away from it. You can have OK money at 18 (and then slave wages at 21), or you can have OK cash at 18 and mindblowing money at 21. I'd forego money now for the bigtime in my prime. You can do what you want, but you can also suit up for chump change for FCD rather than Watford, after your well-paid reserve stint, if you're so inclined. And I have difficulty believing that someone seen at Dallas Cup was only seen and talked to by Man U. I say that having played at Dallas Cup, which most people here probably haven't. If one team saw you, a few did. After all, this year's U-19 Super Group includes Chelsea, Madrid, Sao Paolo, and Chivas. And other teams send their scouts. The notion that you could impress Man U enough for a deal worth a quarter mill American but be overlooked by others is mindboggling.
I don't care what you think, because it's tainted by your subjectivity. I will soon take my leave of this thread, and will have started and finished it with quotes by elite coaches supporting my position on reserve play level "quality", as well as significant evidence that an elite reserve spot does not necessarily translate to success in "opportunity" terms. And all y'all will have accomplished is rehabbing Spector while generally leaving my arguments proven, and indulging in an extended and counterfactual series of ad hominems. Suggestion: if someone says the same thing that two famous coaches do, they are neither the worst nor the craziest poster ever, and you might consider listening instead of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting expletives because their argument pokes holes in the Bigtime Soccer Europhilia that apparently gets you through your day. While I am willing to admit that bigtime Europe has its superficial attractions, and there are no guarantees where-ever you go, I think I've at least muddied the waters a little bit on the near-universal endorsement around here of going to Man U and getting splinters in your shorts. You might make more money over time doing things differently, you might play at a higher level than reserves, and you might wind up with more caps than Mr. Man U reserve. To anyone objective, longterm cash, higher play level, and more caps than Kid Bigtime would be objectively attractive, and encouraging pursuit of same would be lauded as thoughtful. Not on this board: instead, it gets you endless ad hominems and referred to as the dumbest or craziest person ever. I'm through posting to this thread. Maybe it's the board that's the problem, because I recall this being the same place I was called an idiot for hinting that when a quarter of Ghana's team transfered post-WC, and no one American did, that might relate to how they did on the pitch. Maybe this is the place where interesting and factual arguments go to die.
...and this is the thing being overlooked. If you are good enough to break through to a top club's team, then going to a top club is probably your best bet. If you aren't good enough, and you probably won't know at 17 or 18, it might not be so good. Starting lower down will give you more chance to play, but won't guarantee you'll make it to the top, nor will playing in a top club's reserves. You also can't declare which choice is better at 20 or 21 or decide it on the basis of who's made the most money. A huge number of the pros who join top clubs never make it at all - not just with that club, but make it as in have any career in the game at all.
Mr. Jovan Kirovski would like to argue against you on this. He has over 50 us caps, has made millions of dollars, has lived and played in several of the best countries in the world, and has no more soccer talent than half of the players in MLS. This would be crazy if it wasn't true. This guy is a part time starter for the Colorado rapids who can laugh his way to the bank and tell stories of his days on champions league squads. I applaud you for clarifying your overall position though, you just haven't convinced any of us that it's correct or relevant.
It's raving lunacy to think that Jan 1 2006 was the iron-clad cut off date for Arena's evaluation of players. Reyna and McBride weren't capped and they made the team. Why would I take it back. You've proven that you have absolutely no understanding of the FIFA calander. You don't understand why certain players were there and others weren't. - The German Fed politely asked their pro league to work with both national teams and the league went along with that request. There wasn't ever any issue with Bundesliga players, which makes up half your list. - Reading released it's players because the had already run away with the title. If you knew what you were talking about you'd understand this. - Gibbs was personna non grata with his club and was released from his contract. His club had no desire to keep him and this had absolutly nothing to do with the FIFA calander. - Pearce was the only leftback Arena could get because Dunivant was out and the English players I mentioned had midweek games. Pearce's team could have complained but they didn't have the fixture congestion like the English clubs, so they let him go. None of the English clubs that had anything to play for released their players, PSV didn't release Beasley, and Standard didn't release Gooch. If you had followed the Nats closely last year, understood the FIFA calander, and knew each players situation it would be crystal clear for you why certain players were called up and others weren't. But you don't know a damn thing. Do you even know why Donovan wasn't called up? Spector did play, just not within your idiotic time frame. He played just about the same minutes at outsideback as Pearce, was better than Pearce, and ahead of Pearce in the depth chart. You're just too ignorant to understand player availability and the fact that Arena did not limit his player selection to the 1st four months of 2006. VLA you are the worst poster I've ever encountered in my 11+ years on soccer message board. If this is just a game and you are actually a sockpuppet then kudos, you got me. If you are a real poster and you believe your tripe then I pitty you because these are the dumbest most convoluted posts I've ever read. I really hope for your sake that you are just trolling all of us here because the stupidity is just endless.
By going to SMU? I'll ask again for the umpteenth time, are you really this dense? There were only 2 offers on the table when he signed with ManU. Even the Dallas Burn had passed on Kenny. Well then it's extremely easy to boggle your mind. You have to be a troll, I just can't believe you are serious.
I don't buy that there were only two offers (Man U and SMU were the only interested people? sorry, can't accept that. fails the smell test.) Just like I don't buy that Spector was highly thought of by BA despite the fact BA wouldn't even play him in 2006. I mean, set aside that this is Cooper. If Man U wants someone, do you really think there will only be two teams courting you, one being a college and the other being one of the elite pro squads in the world? This defies logic and sensibility. After all, one would think that even if Man U had discovered some diamond in the rough, at the slightest public hint of Man U interest, anyone and everyone would have come looking as well. And, again, having been to Dallas Cup, there is more than one pro team there playing and/or looking. Now, Cooper might have settled on a decision b/w SMU and Man U, but was that all that was out there for him? I doubt it. Again, it boggles the mind to think that Man U and SMU would be chasing someone by themselves, with no one else interested.
Reyna and McBride made the team uncapped, and so Spector would have too? That's chuckle inducing. You think they were going to cut the team captain and leading striker? Does that make them the same as Spector, who couldn't even make it off the bench when called in, and had 3 total caps? Honestly, the studs should have been brought in more, the team looked out of sync arguably because they'd been left out so much, but there is uncapped, and there is uncapped. Your starting #10 does not have to be called in to make the team. The last fullback on the roster does. QED. I mean, did you never go through HS or club or college soccer tryouts? The studs don't have to "make the team" in them. They do their time, then watch the people who really have the money on the table play. We spent our time trying to decide who to tell coach to pick up. It's the last guys on the roster who need a tryout, and a guy with 3 all time caps is gunning for a mere place on the roster, he needs to show something. Someone who never even plays can't show anything.
Why don't you PM England66 and find out? Of all the nonsense you've spewed here, this may be the one time in which 'another team' may have shown interest, and you may have a smidgen of a point (I don't know) Of course, that consequence would be that you reach another false conclusion based on limited information - you will run with such information like 70's OJ jumping the baggage or 90s riding in the bronco - contorting it jaggedly down some blind logic alley. But for argument's sake, do give England66 a jingle. Its your best bet yet!
It is my understanding that Cooper got a trial with ManU because Kenny Sr. had some connections with the club. Without those connections ManU probably wouldn't have noticed him either and he would have gone to SMU. As I recall there wasn't any professional interest in Kenny and he had already comitted to SMU when the late trial came up. People on here criticized Kenny for leaving SMU high and dry. England66 certainly can give you a definitive answer but I believe that I've got the situation pretty much stop on. I'm positive there wasn't any interest from big clubs that you mentioned like Chelsea and R Madrid.
I never said that, just pointed out that Arena was not limiting his choices to the 1st 3 1/2 months of 2006. Unfortunately that was a result of the FIFA calander and player availabilty plus injuries. If you'd been paying attention you'd understand this. Spector played outside back for Bruce Arena just as much as Pearce did, and played better too. Carry on troll
you couldn't be more wrong had you really tried. This has been discussed countless times in these threads so I'll give you the cliff notes version.... Cooper's club side (Solar) played vs Benfica in the Dallas Cup,,,,Cooper did really well....Benfica invited him to train with them while they were in Dallas....and he played in a scrimmage game for them later in the week (I was at that game) and scored twice....they invited him to Lisbon for pre-season....Man Utd got wind of it through another guy in Dallas (not me and certainly not his dad) and invited him to stop by Carrington on his way to Lisbon.....he arrived on thursday....stayed at his aunts house in Blackpool until his trial started on monday....was put in with the academy players....did well....was put in with the reserves....did well.....was put in a full field scrimmage on the friday with the first team (played with Veron, Scholes, Giggs and Ruud)....did very well......( to the point where John O'Shea told SAF..."this American boy's a bloody handfull"..) the next day the first team squad left for their first USA tour and Cooper went back to his aunts house to get ready to leave for Portugal the next wednesday. On tuesday SAF called him from the States and offered him a 3 year guaranteed contract.....and he remains TO THIS DAY.....the ONLY player EVER offered such a deal by MANCHESTER UNITED who was NOT extensively scouted by them before hand....after speaking with his dad (who then spoke to SAF) he accepted the contract....called Benfica (who were VERY understanding and in fact wished him the best and told him... quote..."We are a Volkswagon....Man Utd is a Rolls Royce".....Cooper then explained the situation to Schellas Hyndman at SMU (who was incredibly pissed off) and spent the next 2 1/2 years in the Man Utd system...then left BY MUTUAL CONSENT, even though offered, by SAF a one year extension to come to MLS because unlike Rossi he really DOES want a CHANCE to play for the USA. Cooper's dad had NOTHING to do with Cooper getting a look see....it was set up, originally, by another friend in Dallas who was with me at the Benfica/Cooper scrimmage.....( they played against a team from the DC area coached by former Washington Darts goalkeeper Lincoln Phillips) I was called by Jimmy Ryan (a former Dallas Tornado team mate and now on the staff at Man Utd) and asked my opinion....I told Jimmy that the kid was the real deal....was a goal scorer...and that Benfica were all over him while they were in Dallas....and that was enough for Man Utd to make the initial call and invite him in. Within a week of signing on with Man Utd Thomas Wrongen called Cooper and invited him into the u20 team that was due to play in a tounament in Spain or Portugal ( I forget which) and Cooper, having been totally ignored by Wrongen and not wanting to send the wrongen message to SAF politely declined....