"He really needs football and reserve-team football is really for the youth team and doesn't present the right challenge for an experienced player like Alan [Smith]," [Man U coach Alex] Ferguson ... said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/cardiff_city/6135206.stm The next time someone refers to Donovan or Cooper's (or anyone else's) European reserve stints, how should we consider that in light of Ferguson's dismissal of the value of reserve play?
I don't think you can dismiss all reserve play. He basically said that for an experinced player like Smith, he doesn't think reserve team play would do him any good. For younger players, performance in the reserves is the only way of fighting for a first team spot. IRRC LD got some first team play in his second stint. Would reserve play do him any good at that point in his career? Maybe not. Could he have progressed by sticking with the reserves in his first trip to Germany - maybe. Convey spent a good bit of his first year with reading in the reserves and managed to win a starting spot in the second, so there's some value to the reserves. As for Cooper, his extended stay in the reserves showed that he wasn’t going to crack the first team. I think he stayed in the reserves too long. Did Cooper ever try to go out on loan?
Diversionary statement. Is Man U supposed to start him, first team, right away? Even Roger Clemens pitched in the minors on his return to Houston this year. Smith broke his leg badly and needs to rehab to ever have a chance of returning (which tends to render references to his paypackets moot), and such a reserve team would come to mind as a way to get PT, and yet the coach dismisses such teams as, essentially, child's play.
Cooper was 21 by the end. Given that high schoolers like Adu and Owen/Rooney (back in the day) are seeing first team PT now, being an 18-20 y/o American plying your time in the reserves may not be all its cracked up to be.
$8M is what you pay a superstar striker (heck, Andy Johnson is "only" making $4M at Everton), so if you think that Smith is capable of being a superstar striker, you pretty much concede that he is above the reserve level. Steve Coppell, on the other hand, chose to withhold some of his players from going on loan to Colaship because he said that the reserve play (in and around London, I assume) was of higher quality than Colaship.
Still, you have to reconcile the "opportunity" offered by European reserve play (as you suggest) with the actual level of play. [Fergie's comments indicate that he wouldn't even bother sending a decent veteran there.] I can understand Americans chasing opportunity, but Fergie's statements seem to be dismissive of the actual play quality for bigtime reserves, which is the other selling point for Europe (beyond "taking a chance") vis-a-vis playing in MLS or hunting down some small, niche abroad side that will actually start you first team.
Fergie just said exactly the opposite, indicating that he wishes Smith would go to Cardiff b/c it would be better than reserves. And the issue is not whether he is theoretically above reserve level (having not played in ... how long? I broke my leg in college and it tooks months to regain my level of fitness and quality.), but that in dealing with an important "rehab assignment" of sorts Fergie said that he thinks reserve play is very very inferior. That he'd rather see someone in Colaship instead. Which, if you think about the progressions of players like DeMerit, provides an interesting insight into what might be best for you. You might be better off in the Championship or elsewhere, working in obscurity and moving up the ladder, than playing reserve ball.
If you want to ask a rhetorical question, ask a rhetorical question. The question "What should we make of Kenny Cooper's Manchester United reserve experience based on the fact that Alex Ferguson says Alan Smith is above the reserve level?" is not what you asked; and not rhetorical. But since that's what you're now saying that's what you're asking, I'm saying that I don't see much point in trying to paint reserve experience as having the same type of value for every player of every age and every stage in their career. As for Cooper, well, he seemed pretty well prepared for MLS action in my opinion. As a side note, I've actually attended a Manchester United reserve match. Ferguson was literally meters away from where I was sitting. That uniquely qualifies me to ... not really have that much more to say on the topic, apart from that this particular match seemed to be played at a high level but something less than full speed. Whether Cooper benefitted more from playing at that level than from playing at, say, Oldham, I couldn't begin to guess.
"Donovan or Cooper's (or anyone else's) European reserve stints" "how should we consider that in light of Ferguson's dismissal of the value of reserve play" Plural, and general, not specific to Cooper or anyone (although, clearly, their experiences are relevant). Rhetorical on its face. Point I'd make is that DeMerit floated up to the Premiership taking the low road through obscurity and Watford, while Cooper's resume-impressive Man U reserve stint (with tens of goals a year) has brought him to greatness in ..... Dallas? You might be better off playing first team in "League play" than reserves in a first division. Put the consistent "return to MLS" stamps together with it not seeming to matter if you score 15 goals for Man U reserves together with Fergie's dismissiveness, and I think there's a decent debate to be had about ideal destinations for American youth on the make.
Its an entry-level job, a way into the company. You learn some valuable skills, and you see if there is a great opportunity. When it is clear, there is not- you move on. In-between, they allow you to go on neat internships in other places. I guess I don't really get the point of the thread. Reserves wind up being the launching pad for some, just a good experience for others, and not getting some others to the top level (in other cases). But maybe in the last case- those players were wash-outs anyway (so what's the difference?)
Is it better, long-term, to be a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big pond? That's my question. In light of LD and KC's experiences, as well as Fergie's evaluation of the level of play, might big fish in small pond be smarter? The irony is that the guys who "went big" seem to end up in MLS, whereas the guys who "went obscure" are in the Premiership, the Bundesliga, etc. Which is to say that, well, resume padding does not guarantee the better career. Who would you rather be, Cooper in Dallas, or DeMerit in Watford? Is the guy playing in the elite league really the better player, or did he just make smarter career moves?
Help - I'm really confused. what's the point? Cooper should have gone to where? Academie in Portugal ... oh wait. A lower division English club like Oldham ... oh wait. MLS ... oh wait. What is the cautionary tale with Cooper. I don't get it?
Cooper finally found PT in Oldham only to get yanked back to Man U, then released. Fine reward for, what was it, 12, 15 goals in a reserve season? One could argue letting Man U control your fate was actually a negative influence on his career b/c they never made him first team despite his prolifigacy, and sent him to all the places you mention. And he ends up here, scoring roughly at a reserves rate. Whereas some of these guys who go to Oldham-type teams to start with end up in the first division. DeMerit with Watford. Lewis has done better once he moved down the ladder a rung. The guys in Germany and Holland with more obscure teams. They stick. Whereas, if you try to make Bayer or Man U, you end up playing for Dallas or Los Angeles for a pittance.
"reserve team football is for young players" is quite a recent attitude in the premiership, with the big clubs tending to take that approach. It's not totally consistent. At Reading, for example, fringe players play in reserve games, as do a few youth players. It does rather unbalance the talent level somewhat. Two weeks after Arsenal's first team beat Reading 4-0, their reserves lost the corresponding fixture 6-0.
The answer is...... it depends. There's no one single answer. Some players have benefited from reserve play and other haven't. You can't totally dismiss reserve play. LD may have benefitted from staying in the reserves on his first trip to Germany. Convey was helped by his play in the reserves during his first year. Cooper probably hung in the reserves too long. I am sure that if Fergie didn't value the reserves at all, he'd get rid of them. In all reality, Fergie's statment on whether reserve league play is helpful to Smith does not effect the value of reserve play for other players. It could be that he want's Smith to get out of his comfort zone and really test whether his leg has healed.
Maybe the answer is.....be a happy fish in an environment that you nourishes, can nourish you. Don't worry about the rest.
I will jump in for the Cooper argument. Cooper had a good run and was offered a new deal at United because the coaches thought that he was going to be a late developer for United first team. I applaud Cooper for taking the initiative to gain first team minutes and to get on to the USMNT radar. He had plenty of offers from other teams but at this point in his career he needed to be playing so MLS was a good destination. I will point out that reserve team ball at United is different since the more experienced and talented players have been loaned out to different clubs around Europe. Cooper got a great education from United and has tools that he can carry around for the rest of his career that he wouldn't have picked up in MLS if he started his career here in the first place.
Here's my opinion.... If you are over the age of 23 and can't get out of the reserves... you aren't good enough for the team and/or league where your contract is held. As far as I'm concerned the term "pro soccer player" has 2 parts. As a "player" you should want to play meaningful games and be at the top level you can. This is location dependant and doesn't touch the "big/small fish" issue. The "pro" part of the term "pro soccer player" is probably more significant. This is a business as well as a game and you need to bring a return on investment for your employer. Reserve matches are meaningless in themselves - they are only important as it pertains to getting players ready for the first team, getting players back to match fitness, or in some cases developing players for the first team. If you're on a given reserve team for 2 years as an adult... I believe it's time to move on to somewhere you play for the first team.
Fergie's comment seems to indicate that it's not just about experience (you kind of contradict yourself (as does Fergie) by harping on his experience at a time when Fergie can't even see playing him first team ... hence the need for a loan or reserve play ... someone who needs to earn their way back is clearly not the same player he once was, at least not yet) but also level of play. [That is to say, one might consider if Fergie is simply being nice to Smith with his comments, rather than making more trenchant and direct statements criticizing reserve play and Alan Smith.] Simply put, why can't he test whether his leg is healed and get out of his comfort zone with reserves? Because the level sucks. After all, when you are working your way back to fitness and quality from injury, you are not the same player, and one can hardly say you are "above" anything. Roger Clemens made a tour of the Astros' minors when he returned midyear. What "experience" tends to hint at is that they will eventually be back to top notch playing, not that that is where they are now. Making it all the more strange that reserve play is already deemed "beneath" him. The reserve benefit argument you made is also ripe for critique. Convey benefitted from reserves? Hardly. He played years for DC and the US. Ditto Donovan in SJ. Cooper's "reserve benefit" is coming back to Dallas. That's more of an ad for the benefit of MLS than European reserve play.
One can make this "development" argument for Cooper, who came into MLS "smoking". And yet, some of the stats Cooper had for Oldham and Man U reserves seem to hint that he deserved first team play someplace good in England and yet never got it. He never got a real "opportunity". And we can hardly put Dallas up on a pedestal when you were once with Man U. People were throwing around Convey on here, well, Convey went from MLS to England, Cooper did the reverse. If we are evaluating on both development and opportunity in reserve ball, ummm, well, Cooper got messed over on opportunity. Convey's the guy in the EPL, not Cooper. And, we should take statements about an exiting player with a grain of salt. Man U never elevated him while he was there. Saying nice things when he leaves could just be ... being nice.
With a lot of money coming into the Prem the next year, there'll be a lot of players on the various rosters, not just Chelsea's, who will be more than happy to collect $1M (or larger) paychecks with the top tier clubs rather than make half of that amount with someone in Colaship. Now, if you're talking about a player's development, then one is more likely to test his mettle at a competitive league, which is why big clubs loan out their prospects to the various Euro leagues (Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Colaship, BuLi 2, Serie B, etc.). However, at a certain point in their careers, a lot of players will take a bench/sub/reserve gig for big bucks rather than a probable starting job at a lower tier league or a team.