Bundesliga and the rest: Domestic and European competition discussion

the talent is there they just need to start to breakthrough (harder for some because of their clubs), most of the promising players won't be ready until post Euro. Still there is still plenty that could make it for the Euro who are already in 1st division and some need to stay fit.

if there is a dry spell it will be caused by being in transition or very close to it if Low keeps most of the old guard. Teams like that usually take a few tournaments before they win anything. It took the 2010 group, 2 tournaments before they won their 1st tournament. Even Deschamps's France took 2014 WC and EC16 before they won their 1st tournament.

 

As a BVB fan I wish they took advantage of the Bundesliga's current obsession with foreigners and assemble a German all-stars team of sorts. After all I know it's a long-term goal of them becoming the base of the German NT, which would be pretty sweet IMO.

 

the most annoying obsession is the French one. Even Bayern seem French dominated.
Coman, Tolisso, Ribery and that's not all Bayern seem keen on getting Pavard and Martial if not now than next Summer.

under Pep it was Spanish obsession at the club now it's French.

seriously let's rename this league: "Ligue 1 deux", when almost every team seems to have 2+ French players and always rumors or reports of more and more interest in French players.

And also rename RB Leipzig, "Foreign Leipzig".
and Frankfurt: Eintracht Who cares about Germans Frankfurt

 

why send Schurrle to the dump that is Crystal Palace?

there is a trend though, recently non German coaches are usually (not always) the ones that are more indifferent towards German players even guys like Korkut and Kovac who are German but identify more with Turkey and Croatia don't seem to care. And German clubs are now all obsessed with marketing and making money and there is less and less interest in anything like their own Academies.

at this rate, it seems like Academies are becoming a useless thing for too many clubs outside of being forced to have one. When all they do is buy buy buy. Notice how Dortmund and Stuttgart promoted no one instead they just increased the amount of foreign youth.

it's a very very dangerous trend, RB, Frankfurt, Dortmund all in Europe and they are less and less German.

it's a shame that there aren't more restrictions in 1BL. And the restrictions are a farce, yeah if you don't have 12 registered German players they you have to pay this tiny amount. And nothing says you have to play registered players. Too many loopholes.

doesn't Favre also want to turn Gotze into a DM?

 

Well according to TM “used foreign players”

EPL’s domestic players playing time last season was 33%

Serie A was 44.7%

Bundesliga was 45.3%

Ligue 1was 49%

La Liga was 58%

We might have some players heading to Eredivisie and EPL (or CL) for match practice, Austria too

Apparently 3-5 foreign players a season seems normal, they also have 3-5 domestic signings.

If we can keep it around 45-50% I think we are on the right track.

 

I wish Watzke and co could somehow be removed. Sure, they did a great job pulling the club out of bankruptcy, but they are clearly not the ones to help the club take the next step. Borussia Dortmund needs a more ambitious CEO, and I've already argued online with many local fans but they think Watzke is untouchable and are happy with the club sliding down the limbo of mid-table mediocrity. Case in point, BVB should have gone all out to secure Nagelsmann but instead chose to go for Favre who's never challenged for league titles and has been soundly humilliated in European competitions. I seriously don't understand why so many local fans are excited about next season.

 

According to Vestergaard himself, the transfer fee was €25 million :
https://www.bold.dk/fodbold/nyheder/jannik-v-jeg-koster-186-millioner/

 

Dortmund interested in Mandzukic

Bayern interested Rebic and Pavard

 

the Pavard fixation is so dumb after 1 season everyone wants him and his price is like $50+ M.

Rebic interest is more from Kovac than Bayern is also not needed but him being bought by anyone is even more show of how Frankfurt keeps losing players that were key to them last season. Only + of that is that it could make Frankfurt a relegation candidate which I would love to see.

 

I am not very high on the Pavard interest, I think Bayern is covered a little there. Boateng Sule Hummels and Martinez should cover Central defence, Unless we are planning to play 3CBs which will be an overkill vs 90% of teams we play in the season. A lot can change if Boateng leaves.

But the argument of just 1 good season is what I don't really buy. If it was in a role we desperately needed someone, then get him even if its one season
That was the same logic that made Bayern miss out on Sane and KdB. By the time you are waiting for another season another club takes him

Bayern attackers are notoriously injury prone. Gnabry, Robbery and Coman all are very injury prone and Rebic offers hardwork in attack just like Olic used to and that workrate got us into the CL final in 2010. I wont be opposed to anything that reduces our dependence on Robbery.

 

Pavard is overrated, Sane had 2 seasons at Schalke before going to Man City and KdB had 3 in 1BL. Pavard only had one and everyone wants him for 50+M.

that's how you start integrating the Academy youth players, getting a younger guy means you delay their chances same with the whole Martial obsession.

 

We missed out on Sane and de Bruyne because the management thought they could find players who were just as good for much less.

de Bruyne went to Manchester City for what would have been a Bayern record transfer fee.

 

I'm ok with losing Sane for the NT, he's better off being developed by Pep for as long as possible. Not sure how that would have worked out at Bayern. De Bruyne on the other hand, we have James. So it's not a bad exchange.

 

Sane spent 2 seasons at Schalke first one he got just 600mins, second one he was a regular. This is Pavards second season with Stuttgart and has already played a season in Lille Ligue 1. I think he is on the same level Sane was when he left, a potentially good player that needs more development

Bayern has continental ambitions and they cant depend on academy players to do that, You wont play a Wreidt Mai Wintheimer vs Barcelona City and Madrid. The young players will hardly get play time unless we have a youth crazy coach like LvG, best case for them is to go out get top level experience at clubs with less pressure like Alaba Lahm and come back.

How many legit CL contenders have 3 academy products in their first team, The pressure to win is huge and even Barcelona is spending 130M each on Dembele and Coutinho no longer waiting for La Masia

 

Sane was raw and still somewhat raw player. Pavard isn't a raw player and he's still overrated and overpriced to me.

never said that we should depend on the youngsters to be starters but was responding to your injury prone remark.. That's the perfect time to give chances to them. Getting Pavard, Martial, Rebic, etc will just block them. While we already have our current wingers, the youngsters could start being integrated next season. Is that the same Mai and Evina who owned Kovac's EL Frankfurt team in their 1st pro games?

Besides Bayern DOES have ambitions to in the future rely less on transfers and more on Academy players. And we keep stockpiling talent. You need to start doing something about that and they've given pro contracts to like 6-7 players already this season and there are more players in contention for pro contracts.

Wriedt doesn't have great potential and Wintzheimer doesn't play at Bayern anymore. And your example are of strikers, the main position in the outfield that needs experience. How do you get that experience if you don't play? Doesn't help when Bayern is less keen on loans as most clubs want a buying options. Seems like both Tillman and Friedl have potential buying option to the club that loans them. We've had players in the past playing CL below 20 too.

look at Arp, there are reports that says that Arp will join Bayern but won't go on loan. So we're spending $5 M/year for an 18 year old to play Bayern II? On top of his transfer fee. Or does it make more sense that he starts to get integrated over the season?

but given Bayern's academy ambitions, we do need a coach that will integrate the youngsters for real. Not really convinced Kovac is the answer to that. But it does seem to be one of his and Bayern's mandates.

 

I am not hyped about Pavard in particular but my point is that waiting for a talented player to have proven himself for multiple seasons before buying won't work because there are many clubs out there that are willing to buy that unproven player the way he is and we will have another Bundesliga player slip into another league further strengthening them and weakening us. Sane of 2016 was not ready and still raw, we wanted to wait and lost him

If Robben, Alaba, James Kimmich or Ribery goes down before a game vs Madrid, Barca, Juve etc, Will you be comfortable putting Mai, Friedl Tilman or Evina out there vs Europe's elite? I won't. And most coaches will rather change formation, use an extra experienced defender, midfielder than play a rookie vs top opposition

Keeping Friedl in Bayern and getting garbage minutes behind Alaba will not help his development as we have seen with Alaba Lahm, Kroos and even Gnabry, young players need to play regularly to develop, There might be some lucky breaks when a first teamer gets injured for long and there are non crucial games to test the youngster but just keeping these players when we know they wont play is not helping their development. Every club pays lip service to developing and depending on youth, How many have actually done it? City spent millions on an academy yet no one of the product is good enough for the first team.

The best case for Arps career is not to be playing 3rd fiddle striker behind Lewy and Wagner at this point, It is to get a club whether BL1 or 2 that will play him regularly, If he comes and stays at Bayern he won't get good minutes, wont develop and be another talent wasted.

In the list of Bayerns ambitions, Winning and becoming dominant in Europe I believe is higher than breeding academy talents. Every coach hired by Bayern or every top club have a mandate to win immediately. Bayern will not tolerate a coach that integrates academy players but finished 3rd and crashed out of CL groups neither will any top 10 club in Europe

The situation with Bayern is the same you will find at Juve, Madrid Barcelona PSG, City United etc, clubs with our type of ambitions in Europe

 

Bayern also spent millions to improve their Academy, they want to see a return on that. Supposedly they spent $81+M to open a new Academy, that opened last Summer.Besides City has money from their wealthy owners. Bayern isn't the type of club that likes to waste money. Nor does it make sense to spend that much money but having no clue what to do.

one of the reason why Bayern wants to focus less on transfers is because the overpriced BS you get everywhere. Pavard is a prime example of that $50+M for barely anything. Other clubs wanting $20+M on players with 0 pro experience. Every club is inflating the real worth of players.

You know integration isn't the same thing as being starters. You know majority of strikers in their 1st few seasons in the pro level, they play those garbage sub minutes, which still gives them experience. Even Muller and Alaba started with Bayern II and got integrated along the way. One has to remember that Kovac stated that you need more flexible lineups, can't always play the same. You know he's played 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 at Frankfurt,

difference between Bayern and Juve, Madrid Barcelona PSG, City United is that we don't have as much money to waste and another is that our club actually wants domestic players. The others could give a rat's about domestic.

I get it some Bayern fans care more about glory now now. Over giving a chance to the stockpiled amount of potential at the Academy. I on the other care more about that stockpiled potential and want players to breakthrough since Alaba last did ages ago.

 

Recent results has shown that clubs that depend on academies as the main source of stars are not competitive, I don't want Bayern to become an Ajax or Arsenal under Wenger, I want to see us challenge for trophies in elite Europe.

Tolliso is our record transfer at 40M, that isn't sustainable if we want to remain competitive. We make tonnes of commercial income because sponsors want to identify with winners, That is why Juventus will make more than Ajax If we prioritize academy over winning, it wont be long before the income dwindles, the ability to attract talent wanes and players just see us as a not as a destination club but as a club you develop and move on from, Just like BvB is at the moment

What is your ideal model of a club that Bayern should become with this ideology of focusing on academy players?
Is your dream for Bayern and Bundesliga is it to become a Ajax, Porto, Dutch or Portuguese league where talents develop before moving on but develop tonnes of academy players?

 

no one said there will be 0 transfers or that all the players will come to from the Academy but the good/promising ones should be integrated to the squad. The whole point is to rely less on transfers nor that one depends on youth. Last year Bayern were trying to get a deal with another club in order to work out loans. Doesn't seem to have succeeded in part because of clubs want buying options attached to the loans.

I read your posts and it's as if I said that the entire XI should be Academy kids or majority of the squad. When I never said either one.

Ajax and the entire Eredivisie is a league which is all about loaning in players and selling them for money.

look at 1BL more and more clubs are loaning in foreign players, even Dortmund with that Madrid kid. If you want the quest to become like that look at the entire German league.

also look at how tons of teams are buying kids with 0 pro experience. You think Sancho had any pro experience before Dortmund played him? So many clubs are spending millions and millions to buy kids with no experience and they get integrated.

Besides plenty of coaches have stated that having a good Academy and integrating from that is or should be important.

 

so much for Rebic to Bayern.

According to SportBild, the news about Rebić's agent flying to Munich are most likely just an attempt from the agent to start a bidding war for his client. Bayern are currently not interested in Rebić and Kovač has promised Frankfurt that he won't sign any of his ex players. pic.twitter.com/UUjF2FZ6IQ

— Bayern & Germany (@iMiaSanMia) July 19, 2018