Bulgaria-Italy (Saturday: March 28, 2015) (R)

Discussion in 'Italy: National Teams' started by Sal, Mar 24, 2015.

  1. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    It was clear from the first game they played it as not going to work. Two strikers and no creativity, in one of those first games even the introduction of Gio made the team much better. the 3-5-2 while not addressing the defence would look much better with one forward and even an average playmaker behind him.
     
  2. Il Ciuccio

    Il Ciuccio Member+

    Feb 17, 2010
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
  3. Deleted User x

    Deleted User x Member+

    Mar 21, 2006
    As a fan I've always been fine with oriundi personally. Italians are born all over the world and should be able to play for Italy. Eder, however, is a mercenary who's only link to Italy is that he played calcio there for the last 9 years. It was a fantastic goal and important as well but it just reminds me of club football.
     
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  4. Azzurrifan87

    Azzurrifan87 Member

    Mar 29, 2015
    He has another link. His great-grandparent was Italian.

    http://www.espnfc.com/fifa-world-cu...spirit-of-international-football-gab-marcotti
     
  5. Pietro Calcio

    Pietro Calcio Member+

    Jul 28, 2007
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    seems you had a problem too not too long ago with distant oriundi...like Eder....4 to 5 generations removed

     
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  6. Azzurrifan87

    Azzurrifan87 Member

    Mar 29, 2015
    Thank you for welcoming me. And yes, I have no problem with "oriundi." I would be one myself, with my father having been born in Italy 100% Italian , if I were a skilled enough footballer.

    I absolutely agree with your assessment. Tactics were also the reason Juventus conquered Dortmund. Juventus used the 4-3-1-2 diamond formation, which is widely considered the best formation to counter the 4-2-3-1. And sure enough, a 4-2-3-1 is Croatia's preferred choice of formation. If we employ a 4-3-1-2 with a narrow focus, and move players into offensive channels, I think we can at least grab a point in Croatia and move on to our next two home games. I believe this is possible even with the aforementioned defenders I am being very critical towards for lacking pace. If we have to play these defenders, I prefer Chiellini and Bonucci in a back four and Barzagli phased out of the team. I'm still quite perplexed why Astori is out after the Norway match. I thought he was tremendous in that match.

    My issue with Bertolacci was offensively he filled his role in supporting Antonelli, but he was a defensive liability. Especially in the first half, I felt as if I was watching Gennaro Gattuso provide support to the attack but deliberately forgo his need to race back and recover. I think Soriano provides better composure and presence in the midfield, as he is seemingly in better natural fitness and I think has a better tactical awareness to compliment his good touch in midfield. In the 3-5-2, we can't afford two players linking high on to the left side of the pitch without defensive cover by the midfield.

    Upfront is a bit chaotic right now. I think we absolutely need a trequartista to counter Croatia. Should Vazquez work out ok, this could be our answer. I think Eder should warrant a start if he progresses well, as he could be our forward who moves into the gaps left behind by the attacking Croatian fullbacks (whichever side). Then we need the most in-form striker up front as well. To me, Zaza showed terrible movement yesterday. If you go back and watch the own goal, it was actually Immobile moving the defenders in the box and making anticipations. You will see Zaza literally standing like a statue, as he did most of the game. It reminds me of Osvaldo, who drove me crazy with his non-movement as well. My choice would either be Immobile, or also Pelle because I have seen he moves very well for Southampton. I need to study Gabbiadini some more, but he certainly could fill in as well. My ultimate choice would be Balotelli. I personally think Balotelli is very underrated, and his movement is crucial for any national team. He drops back and bursts forward quickly - very rare for the typical striker. He slayed Germany and England with this technique, as well as performing very well against Brazil on both occasions. Of course, his club consistency and behavior wins him no easy road back to the national team. So I'd prefer Pelle or Immobile. Perhaps Gabbiadini. Immobile moved well yesterday. He needs to play less tense.
     
  7. Pietro Calcio

    Pietro Calcio Member+

    Jul 28, 2007
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #157 Pietro Calcio, Mar 29, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
    that article brings up the point many have issue with here regarding "certain"oriundi




    "Yet there are two other, obvious, problems here. Ones to which there is no easy answer.
    The first is naturalization of convenience. Fortunately football isn't handball, so you won't get situations like
    Qatar becoming a power in team handball overnight. We have, as we've seen, much tougher rules. Yet you will still get situations in which a guy appears to select another country out of sheer convenience. Did Mauro Camoranesi play for Italy in the 2006 World Cup because he felt Italian or because he knew he wasn't going to get a shot with Argentina? I'm not a mind-reader, but my guess is the latter."

    where do we draw the line between national football and club football?

    this article mentions and makes me appreciate guys like this more and more

    "England's pursuit of Januzaj, who represented Belgium at the 2014 World Cup, shows the fluidity of nationality.
    And what about the English Football Association's pursuit of Adnan Januzaj? Born and raised in Brussels of Kosovar-Albanian descent, he turned down the Belgian national team until his 19th birthday in the hopes that Kosovo would get FIFA recognition. During the three years from the time he moved to Manchester United and his debut for Belgium,
    the FA seriously considered persuading him to hold out and play for England. He would have had to not play international football until March 2016, after which he could have been naturalized and played for England. Januzaj, of course, said no, but it would have been perfectly legal and probably more lucrative."

    and finally this issue

    "The other issue is one France and Germany have faced in the past, but others could soon be dealing with: children of immigrants who come through the system, benefit from the time and money clubs and FAs spend on them, and then go off to play for the country of their ancestry. In Germany, the likes of Yildiray Basturk, Nuri Sahin and Hamit Altintop opted to play for Turkey, despite being born and raised in Germany.
    Four years ago, executives at the French FA were
    caught on tape discussing a quota system capping the percentage of players of African heritage at their federal training centers like the fabled Clairefontaine academy. Their argument was motivated by the fact that the French FA was spending plenty to educate and train guys who would then go off to play for other nations: players like Moussa Sow (Senegal), Freddy Kanoute (Mali), Mehdi Benatia (Morocco) or Hassan Yebda (Algeria). But you wonder why you would use ethnicity -- rather than whether the player has dual citizenship -- as a deciding factor."
     
  8. Nek Sanalet

    Nek Sanalet Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    Dec 30, 2013
    NYC
    Club:
    AC Milan
    #158 Nek Sanalet, Mar 29, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
    I had to work yesterday on short notice, and was not able to see the game. I had planned to watch it on repeat, but cheated and saw the score (couldn't help myself). Based on comments I read on this site and from the few minutes I caught here and there (about 20 minutes in total), I probably will just skip seeing the whole game in its entirety.

    Who cares about topping the group. Its not that important. Just finish in the top two. Croatia has a huge goal differential at this point. Coming in third is the scary thing since a couple of top teams might end up there (Netherlands for one). The third place team with the most points automatically qualifies, but the other eight go to a playoff. Beating Croatia is critical, but not for the reasons you state. It would give us some breathing room from Norway who are only 2 points behind us. No one will remember or care who topped the group once the actual Euros roll around. It's possible that seeding may be affected when the groups are formed, but FIFA usually protects the big European teams from clashing in the group stages (especially now with 24 teams making it easy).

    Zaza has been Italy's best center forward this year IMO, but that should all tell us something. He is not even remotely world class. I think Italy should either go 4 3 3 and play both Berardi and Gabbiadini together, by putting one guy on the right, and the other at center forward (and then put anyone you desire SES, Insigne, Bonaventura on the left). Or just play them together in a 3 5 2 and see what happens. Can't be worse than what Immobile and Zaza have been providing (nothing). Zaza, Immobile, Destro, Eder, and someone like Pelle/Toni/Balotelli/Quags are all better off coming off the bench if chosen. But the two Italian strikers who have any chance of becoming World Class footballers were either not starting yesterday or playing for the U21 team.
     
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  9. La Magica

    La Magica Member+

    Aug 1, 2011
    Club:
    AS Roma
    I think the attack would look best with Pelle because of his excellent hold up but Zaza would also do better on his own with Eder behind him who has enough cleverness to make things click. He can also carry the ball, he is a good all rounder setting aside anyones feelings on whether or not he should be playing.
     
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  10. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    Sorry about the duplicate posts. The site was down and I hit "post reply" a few too many times :)

    Pietrocalcio--It's true I was critical of selecting Dybala. That was for two reasons. One, I thought his Italian lineage was essentially non-existent and far removed. I thought Eder's grandfather was Italian...apparently it is his great-grandfather. While I think that is a little extreme, it is Italian law to allow that. I think the difference with Eder is that he has been in Italy nine years. He's spent a 1/3 of his life in Italia. He knows our league, our system, our culture. To me, that counts quite a bit.

    We'll always have Oriundi. It's actually a part of our culture. Italians immigrate and move. They always have. Because of that migration, you will always have bloodlines overseas. No one complained with Camoranesi lifted the WC trophy...and believe me...his wing play was very much useful in winning that Cup.

    Sure, I'd love 100% Italian native borns wearing la maglia Azzurra all the time. But, that's not the reality of our migration pattern as a people.
     
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  11. Afghan-Juventus

    Afghan-Juventus Member+

    Oct 14, 2012
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Afghanistan
    Djelaludin Sharityar has always been critical of Kargar and the AFF but today he had a post where he said he that today was the first day in 8 years that he was comfortable playing for the national team. After this considering how critical he has been of the AFF im sure that the likes of Amiri have left because their loyalty is towards Kargar and not the national team. It is a privaledge to be playing for your countries national team and its obvious these guys don't care if they are just going to walk out like that so really all I have to say is screw them all of them are fringe players except Amiri and im sure Amin could do a great job replacing him.
     
  12. Afghan-Juventus

    Afghan-Juventus Member+

    Oct 14, 2012
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Afghanistan
    my bad wrong thread.
     
  13. Sal

    Sal Red Card

    Feb 9, 2013
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Close....
     
  14. Forzaabruzzo

    Forzaabruzzo Member+

    Apr 19, 2006
    Who is this Djelaludin Sarityar and is his great grandfather Italian by any chance?...
     
  15. 'Uaglio

    'Uaglio Member+

    Jun 8, 2004
    NYC
    PS...if we have to continue to rely on Pirlo and De Rossi to muster a midfield, we are in trouble.
     
  16. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    And if Verratti never brings an attacking aspect to his game, we are in even bigger trouble.
     
  17. Calcio Pauly

    Calcio Pauly Member+

    Jun 17, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Montolivo to the rescue!
     
  18. Il Ciuccio

    Il Ciuccio Member+

    Feb 17, 2010
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    italy will not be relevant for another 10 years.
     
  19. Afghan-Juventus

    Afghan-Juventus Member+

    Oct 14, 2012
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Afghanistan
    Remember he's Afghan not Argentinean;)
     
  20. Pietro Calcio

    Pietro Calcio Member+

    Jul 28, 2007
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #170 Pietro Calcio, Mar 30, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
    I wouldn't say 10....I would by the next WC we should be competitive again and perhaps after that another 2-3 years Italy will be firing on all cylinders again.

    Germany was in a similar bad shape in the early 2000's. They didn't get out of the group of Euro 2000 only getting one point from a draw and scoring only one goal.

    Though Germany did make the final of WC 2002 it was more because of the opponents they faced or didn't have to face that got them there really ( Cameroon Saudi Arabia Ireland in group phase ) and in the Knockouts we all know the scandalous reasons why they avoided Italy or Spain in the semis. They had a rather pedestrian route to the final in the KO round playing Paraguay, the U.S.A and then S. Korea only winning by a margin of 1-0 in each of those games before falling to Brazil 2-0 in a lackluster final.

    Again Germany fails to get out of the group in Euro 2004 only getting 2 points from 2 draws and only 2 goals

    Then in 2006 despite Germany being the hosts they showed they were truly competitive again and not just only consistent when it came to the WC and ever since 2006 Germany has gone far in each of both the WC and the Euro playing highly competitive football.

    It took Germany 6 years....Italy Won the WC in 2006 and they were hard to beat in Euro 2008 in the last 2 group matches and against Spain in the KO's with it going to pks. Italy got bounced from WC 2010 in the group....but really that was more down to coaching error than anything else. We should have at least gotten out of that group. Italy then gets runner up in Euro 2012....knocking out England and favorites Germany along the way. Then Italy gets bounced from the group again in WC 2014 due to a combination of Prandelli's brain farts, unmotivated play by some players and unfortunate and unfair circumstances in the last Uruguay game

    Like Germany I say it's going to take Italy 6 years total from 2014 to fire on all cylinders again....and we should at least be competitive by WC 2018
     
  21. Italy-Azzurri-Fan

    Nov 15, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Yeah by 2018 we should have a strong team again. Also don't forget that in 2004 euro cup Italy failed to advance from their group, but in 2006 we won!
     
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  22. Nek Sanalet

    Nek Sanalet Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    Dec 30, 2013
    NYC
    Club:
    AC Milan
    #172 Nek Sanalet, Mar 30, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015

    Italy was terrible in the Euro 2008 tournament. Yeah they got to penalties against Spain, but looked totally outclassed throughout that game. They got smashed by Netherlands 3-0, got lucky to tie against Romania, and won against a even more dysfunctional French team.

    After 2006, Italy have looked bad in every tournament except Euro 2012. I don't think there is some quantifiable timeline where Italy will "fire on all cylinders" again. With the way Italian football is run and organized, this will be the new norm from now on…lackluster performances with the occasional breakthrough in a cup. Italy will always have the players and tactics to go deep in any tournament, but German consistency is going to be lost for a very long time. It goes way beyond players…and into stuff like infrastructure, attitudes, and organization.
     
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  23. Italy-Azzurri-Fan

    Nov 15, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    We had a better squad in 2008 and 2010 than 2012. But in 2008 the Netherlands was beyond amazing, their coach was one of the most experienced. Italy though were without Pirlo, and Gattuso against Spain and would have won if they had them. In 2010 it was due to many injuries and formations completely wrong. Don't forget that we got robbed against Slovakia. 2 disallowed goals and a huge foul against us that wasn't called.

    2012 I don't think we deserved to be in the final. We got there due to luck kind of like how Germany made it in 2002. We only won 2 proper games, and depended on ties and penalties just to get smashed 4-0 by Spain in the final.
     
  24. totti fan

    totti fan Red Card

    Jun 24, 2010
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    It should be clear to anyone who honestly watched this game why Verratti likes to pass sideways and backwards so much. His forward passing was all over the place often in situations when he was under no pressure. Normally he's able to duck under the radar b/c he can pass it to other creators in the midfield but with so many injuries there was no such out this time around.
    And then there was his defensive performance playing in front of the back 3......
     
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  25. totti fan

    totti fan Red Card

    Jun 24, 2010
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    This match highlights the weakness within the Italian stable currently. There didn't seem to be a genuine passer/playmaker out there today. There were a lot of injuries to potential players who could fit that role (De Rossi, Montolivo, Pirlo) but nevertheless for a country that prides itself on producing players with strong technical quality you would expect at least one genuine ball player to be available. That is why I was surprised that he didn't give Validifiori a run but I guess it would have been too big an ask for his debut.

    There were lots of players out wide that were able to get into dangerous positions - Antonelli, Bertolacci, Darmian etc but the final shot/pass was often poor.
    Immobile provided good movement up front but he is really struggling to take his chances at this level.
    Zaza was disappointing and as he often is there to form that link b/w midfield and attack it hurt us.
    Candreva was inconsistent but at least he was prepared to take a leadership role in midfield and was not in his normal position.
    And nice Del Piero special from Eder there towards the end.
     
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