Brilliant Oranje - The smallest nation on earth to have ever reached 3 WC finals [R]

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Hiddink seems more than desperate to become the new Oranje coach imo. And the most likely candidate.
     
  2. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Oh, really... ? Didn't know this. That's really good news. Sign him up! What are we waiting for?
     
  3. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  4. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    As long as they leave Frank de Boer at Ajax, I really don't care who they pick! Forza Ajax!!
     
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Koeman or Hiddink. Hard one.
     
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  6. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'm sure the Feyenoord supporters would be pleased if Koeman is selected!
     
  7. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Frank has already said he's not interested at the moment. :thumbsup:
     
  8. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'm not a fan of either of them but I prefer Hiddink. I think he's better all around. People management wise and tactically.
     
  9. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    De Boer isn't going anywhere. I'll take Hiddink or Rijkaard.
     
  10. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    What pays more, a club coach or a national coach??

    Does anyone know??
     
  11. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Ditto
     
  12. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    National coach when going by the average. BVM wages were €1,8 million. LVG is probably on something similiar.
     
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  13. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
  14. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    Well, Russia got in the group with Germany and convincingly became second. He should have won the knock out game against Slovenia. Did win the first game. Kind of got trapped against a defensive side, they scored on Russia, then they got a red card. kind of killing a push in the last 25 minutes of the game. They even got a second red card at the end IIRC. With Netherlands we are kind of spoiled having great attackers/attacking midfielders like Robben, RVP (in this qualification campaign becoming top scorer in UEFA zone), vdV, Sneijder that can score goal out of nowhere. That is not so simple, managing teams not having that kind of quality at the front.

    Turkey became second over Belgium, behind Germany. That's not bad actually. You can not expect him to get ahead of Germany with that material. The games vs Croatia were not good, though he managed a draw away. The trashing at home was bad. Then again, how has Turkey done this time around. Not even managing a knock out game. They lost to us in a do or die game at home with 2-0 against a supposed sh*t defense. 0 goals. They lost 2-0 managed by one coach, but also 0-2 with the best they got, that Terim guy. Same result and even at home. So how good is Turkey exactly? Turks liked to blame it all on Hiddink, but the material is something to look at as well to say the least. I can see anybody struggling to qualify with that.

    Anzhi I don't know. Maybe should have done better. He did trash AZ with 0-5 at home. I was impressed with that. Was his budget that much bigger than the Moscow and St. Petersburg clubs? Third does not sound that horrible to me. It's actually a pretty strong competition, the Russian one. Better than Eredivisie. Feyenoord was even kicked out of Europe by Krasnodar.

    Looking at all of it, he has not done any magic, but to say he really failed on all three accounts goes a bit far as well. Placing it in context, it's somewhere in between.

    That being said, look at Koeman. Not playing in Europe, not solving defensive fragility with dead ball moments, not winning a title with Feyenoord, being number 7 atm behind PEC Zwolle and FC Groningen, playing plan B football. How inspirational is that? Looking forward on high balls on RVP, when for a moment we can't solve it over the ground. Being trigger happy with hoofing it, when a bit of resistance is felt? How about his choice for Sexy Lexy on 10 for his battle ability rather than Vormer next Clasie and Vilhena on 10? Why is he not able to get Vilhena to track back properly rather than letting his man run away all the time? How about his defeatist pose on the bench rather than fire to make players do what he wants. The ability of a coach to make players understand and do what is needed is kind of important, no? Why do Feyenoord players do better in Oranje than at Feyenoord? His team stayed the same and is so far not making steps. Could Feyenoord have beaten Barca?


    It's not like Koeman's latest track record is so rosy either, is it?
     
  15. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Has Germany ever finished second in qualifying for any tournament?? I have to think back, but I can't remember them even once not finishing 1st.

    They really are the worst team to draw, right after Italy
     
  16. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    #391 Brilliant Dutch, Nov 29, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  17. s7kru

    s7kru Red Card

    Dec 13, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You can't justify his failure at Turkey.

    He did literally nothing, the players that were selected all were done by the assistant-coach who is a former-Fenerbahçe player. Then he blamed the Turkish football system for producing too few talents, which is partly true but even then he could have built at least a decent team with all the players that were playing at that moment.

    Terim had to change a team that has been playing crap for almost 1 year in a few weeks into a decent team, expecting a win against Netherlands would be too much.
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not out there to justify. I try to assess and bring context to to the issue if you know that Koeman is his main competitor. Then we have to be fair to Hiddink as well. I want the best coach for the Dutch NT and after his attitude in 2008 where he got all hyped up kicking Netherlands out of the Euro, I am less fondly about him. That does not mean he can't do a good job for us.

    So it was a hands off approach where the assistant got a lot of freedom to make many calls.

    Were there arguments to go for a Fenerbace framework? Juve was the framework for Italy in 2012 and they reached the final of the Euro, knocking out Germany on the way. Van Gaal went for many Feyenoord players in his qualification campaign. There are many other examples. Having many players from the same club in the NT has many advantages. Fast communication. Automatism. Could circumvent rivalry. If you take a step back from it all, were there maybe similar kind of arguments in play?

    But the team he played did get ahead of Belgium, an upcoming power. One might even say that becoming third in a group with them is not that bad. He got ahead of them, so it can not be labeled as something of a big failure IMO. Also you can not expect him to qualify ahead of Germany. So second place was the only option, which he got.

    To be honest with you, I think Croatia at the Euro was really good and I would rate them over Turkey at that time. I said in my post above that the 0-3 defeat at home was bad (we can agree on that), but apart from that result, I simply think Croatia was better in that time frame than Turkey. Croatia's draw on the Euro against Italy and narrow loss to Spain was maybe even selling them short. The way they played got me excited. Croatia was kind the revelation of the tournament for me despite not advancing from the group stage. That guy in your avatar was quite a handful and I really appreciated him.

    What would you call fair to take away the label failure from his tenure in Turkey? What result should he have gotten to say he did oke-ish/average with the NT (my position)? Do you put any blame with Turkey (Turkish FA) themselves?

    Must say that Turkey had their chances and a coach can not kick them in for a player.

    If you would like Netherlands to do as good as possible, who would you take?
     
  19. s7kru

    s7kru Red Card

    Dec 13, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yet the turkish players of Fenerbahçe back then were crap, they even had to naturalize some foreign players (''Mehmet'' Aurelio, Nobre) to not break the rules. For example, a Fener-player like Selçuk Sahin had quite a few call ups during that period while a much better player like S. Inan was left home. That's like preferring Lurling over Van Der Vaart. Madness.

    Belgium wasn't as hyped as they are at the moment though.

    Granted, Croatia were indeed an underrated team back then but look how easily we lost the home game, without scoring goals nor creating any dangerous chances at all; the team was simply outclassed.

    Here's a list of all the mistakes he was causing:

    1. He barely visited Turkey or watched matches from the Turkish league.

    2. He didn't call up Topal, who was one of the key players at Valencia back then.

    3. He played Sabri - who is originally a right back and never played as a left back- as a left back quite a few times, including the Croatia game.

    4. He didn't call up one of Bursaspor's best players Volkan Sen yet was constantly calling up the terribly weak player Selçuk Sahin.

    5. He preferred experienced benchwarmers over players who haven't played for the national team, yet were very good at that moment.

    6. He played Hamit, who has never played as a right winger, on the right wing.

    7. He said that losing 3-0 to Germany is something normal, and it was clear that he didn't had any trust in this national team.

    We got lucky that our goalie Volkan, who is known for his mistakes at the NT, saved us quite a few times, or else the score might have been even more frustrating. You could easily notice how uninterested he was. Do you want a coach that doesn't care how your team performs?


    If he actually did call up the country's best players, showed some confidence and motivated the players these results wouldn't have been so terrible. Him criticizing the country's football system after doing nothing and letting his assistant coach calling up the players was hilarious and frustrating at the same time.

    He was basically a ''Geldwolf''', enjoying the money and status he had as the coach of the Turkish NT.

    Tough choice.

    Koeman was not very successful outside the Netherlands, and this season Feyenoord isn't really good. I don't know if he would want it, but Frank De Boer could be a good option. Confident, his football philosophy suits the NT and he had some recent successes as well (like winning the Dutch league 3x).
     
  20. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Martin Jol is now available.:eek:
     
  21. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
  22. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    Without wanting to commit myself to agree on every claim, I will say it's an insightful post and contains points to consider. Thanks for the good read.
     
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  23. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Seeing that 5 managers were 'in charge' of the Belgian NT in only 3 years (2009-2012) it's fair to say that the crisis was at its peak ... Hiddink could have been the healing manager we needed (instead of Advocaat) ... the team only started to come together about 12-18 months ago after Wilmots took over (Leekens as a manager was a scary proposition ... Luc Nillis, our best striker when Leekens managed the team back in 1998, vowed never to return as an international because of Leekens ... history was about to repeat itself during his second term).

    On face value Hiddink strikes me as a man on a mission ... I feel that he wants to make amends and leave a positive legacy ... he isn't as young as other candidates yet he's a man that takes his life's work seriously ... unlike an ego-trip, he seems to care and leaving something unfinished will affect him ... being concerned with the state of affairs means he'll go beyond the call of duty ... declining the engagement of a manager of his stature seems foolish.

    PS the Spurs are also rumoured to have Hiddink on their shortlist if AVB loses 1 too many ... still plenty of clubs and NTs believe that he's the right man for the job.

    PPS is Kluivert supposed to take over in X years ... if so the tutelage of Hiddink would be very valuable, cfr. Rijkaard taking over in 2000 ... I didn't follow the 'kabel ordeal' closely, so I can't tell if there are lingering feelings.
     
  24. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Hmm I feel that with the man-on-a-mission-thingy you may be reading a little too much in Hiddink's friendly face. Then again, I do think he could be good for this team. At some point in time. Given a certain set of circumstances. For example, the young players may develop stardom and grow into prima donna's with ditto behaviour as their carreers start to go ballistic, after winning 2014 :D
    Now that for sure would be a reason to get Hiddink in.;)
    Otherwise, I'd rather see Rijkaard give it another go.
    My favourite option, though, would be to convince van Gaal to stay for a little while longer.
     
  25. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    When it comes to the canon of 'Ollandse School ... do you feel that Rijkaard or other candidates, e.g. a frontrunner like Koeman, can add more than Hiddink? Guus is a better manager than during his first time at the helm of Oranje ... people tend to learn from their mistakes/failures ... while on the whole Hiddinks resume is impressive.

    What I remember are the success stories ... Guus in charge of Oranje + S.Korean, Australian & Russian NTs ... and also the trophies he won for PSV (Chelsea to a lesser extent). This has more to do with a love for underdogs and with his style of football (instead of parking the bus, you can expect gutsy play). I believe Hiddink had a hand in Holland's ascent in the 90s ... of course the squad back then was one of the strongest. 1996 might have been a false note ... still in France something special was happening too (Cantona out / Zidane in). The 1998 & 2000 squads brought some of the most exciting football that I've seen live. Especially EURO2000 was IMHO the most attractive tournament in recent history ... I started watching in the 90s and those are fond childhood memories ... I would have loved to see the final between Holland & France (Bergkamp - Zidane), yet after what seemed 1000 shots on target Italy spoiled the Dutch party ... an anti-climax just before a thrilling final. Rijkaard was the manager but Hiddink's influence lingered on ... at least Rijkaard's experience with Hiddink will have been a formative one. In my view Hiddink's picture pops up when I think of 'Ollandse School' ... at the moment he's better equipped than the other candidates and more likely to write a new chapter ... he did promise as much.

    Van Gaal said that Holland's popularity reaches beyond its borders ... well contrary to the views of pundits, your biggest fans probably are your neighbours to the South ... ok we can't compete with Oranje-mania but who can. After Hiddink's Russia eliminated Holland in 2008 ... I got the feeling that Guus experienced some kind of vindication regarding what happened during his time in charge of Oranje ... I can only look from the outside in but it seems that the media played a major role in those woes ... at least whenever there was a hint of conflict, they did their best to create a wildfire and profit on the back of it. Standards of journalism are at times deplorable ... the Januzaj saga is another example of how disruptive the media can be. Still I'll admit to a bit of historical revisionism ... contrasting Hiddink to Advocaat ... to say the least I have mixed feelings about Advocaat (dating back to when he managed the Belgian NT) and as a result Hiddink comes off better. A manager that caused a Korean pilgrimage to Varsseveld can't be all bad.
     

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