Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 I look at my season tickets differently (not just differently than you do, I have had this debate/discussion with some of my seat mates so you are not alone). I pay little attention to what is printed on the face of my tickets (as it moves around so much even for league matches). I just take the total cost of my season tickets and divide it by 18 (15 league matches, 2 Nutralites and 1 friendly) and arrive at a cost per match......in that calc, I do think the Bolton match is good value as I do the rest of the matches. It is your right and that really is your only recourse.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 If you take the calculation that I explained in my previous post, that really is the revenue per match the club receives from STH. If, as TFC does, you have a predominantly STH sales mix, then you simply are not generating enough revenue from that match to warrant the cost of a "big club" and you are likely losing money on the night. If you have a small STH base, you can afford to give your STHs a break and make up the difference on the cost of the big club by inflating the price on the other tickets. You may not agree (or like it) but if a Real Madrid or Man United were the match in our ST package one of two things would happen....either the cost of your ST would go up dramatically in anticipation of the big club or they would lose money on the night.....since MLSE is a profit making venture I doubt they would plan on losing money.....if they could not guarantee the name of the big club before they sold the ST (as is likely) how many of us would pay more for our ST without knowing who that big club is (remember we all have different definitions of big club).....so, the only likely senario (other than the status quo) would be the elimination of an included friendly and any friendly would just be sold on its merits when announced. I, too, enjoyed that match. Didn't mind paying for it either. It was not, however, in any way competitive. I agree it is irrelevant to this discussion. FYI, though, I don't think it is on turf. They brought in temporary grass last week for Juventus v Fiorentina and they only sold 22k tickets to that at lower price points....pretty sure there is enough money in the Man U v Celtic match to bring the grass in again.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 That's the way I look at it. I look at what I pay for the whole package and what I get in the package, and I think that it's good value. Nobody's "forcing" me to buy any of it. If you think the package is a rip off then don't buy it, buy tickets for only the games you want.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Are you sure about that. There were quotes from players talking about how they weren't used to playing on the artificial surface. I believe they played on the stadium's existing Field Turf. As for Manchester United v Celtic, I certainly hope they're going to bring in real grass for the match.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 But isn't that the point? How competitive is it supposed to be? It's a friendly....an exhibition. It should be used as an opportunity for TFC to play the guys that don't get a lot of playing time and a way to expose everybody (first hand) to playing against world class players. There is no other way for a player of TFC calibre to experience that. What do they benefit by playing against Bolton? As for the cost of seasons...I understand your rationale and even agree with it. But tell me...what is the purpose of the club making the Intl. Friendly face value so high? What are they trying to sell me by telling me that my usually 18 dollar valued ticket is now worth 60 bucks? Do you see why it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I feel like I'm being duped. Also...how are RBNY bringing in Juventus...or Chicago with AC Milan...or KC with Man U.....etc. etc? Are they all not run by profit making companies? Sure they are. The only difference is that they still have to fight for their fan bases loyalty. TFC FO doesn't. We eat everything up and beg for more. Therein lies the problem. We complain more about how the players get treated (like Dichio and Brennan) than we do about how we get treated. It's messed up.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Your confusing me a bit now.....do you want TFC players to get experience playing world class players or do you want bench players who don't even get MLS time to play....aren't these counter productive? You would rather see top flight "big club" but are ok with them playing TFC's subs? I am a bit confused. But my point is that your ticket is, neither, $18 nor $60....it is the average determined by dividing your total cost by 18 games. (BTW....where are the $18 seats? I have supporters seats and club seats.....neither of which are that low for any match. What is the value of printing such a high price on the ticket for the friendly? It sets the mark for what they can sell the 5k or so seats that are not held by STH. Bringing in revenue from non-STH....again, they are not duping you because they are simply charging you the same average price they are charging you for the other 17 matches. They may be "duping" the person who pays that full price but no one forces them to pay. Those teams have much lower numbers of season ticket holders so they can use big named teams to do two things: 1. reward those few STH they have (creating a goodwill that might translate into more next year) 2. bring in revenue from non-STH It is simple supply and demand and operates like this everywhere. I agree that complaing gets tiresome....your options are, simple, don't buy if it bothers you....if enough agree then the policy/procedure will change. I think you might be in the minority though.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 All I know is that I watched the highlights on the news that night and they went out of their way to point out that it was temporary grass. EDIT: I have googled around and it turns out you are right the Juve match was on turf....good news for you, though, the Celtic match is on grass: http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/article/805537--man-united-to-face-celtic-at-rogers-centre
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Really interesting to read the discussion about this match and your viewpoints, especially about the "big" teams. From a Bolton point of view, yes, we are not one of the "big" teams in the EPL. However, we are one of the oldest, being one of the 12 that founded the original Football League, and one of the most famous, having been involved in arguably the 3 most famous FA Cup Finals at Wembley - 1923 (the first one when over 200,000 people squeezed in), 1953 (the famous "Matthews Final") and 1958 (when we beat Man Utd just after the Munich Air Disaster). At present, we have one of the longest "lengths of service" in the EPL, and are characterised as being "annoying" to the bigger teams because we hold our own against their much bigger budgets and much better players. We love it. They hate us and we don't care. It's interesting that some would prefer a "bigger" club, however, there is a real down side to that. These "big" clubs are notorious for charging huge fees for these sorts of games, due to being able to trade on their "name", and then they come and play a team of players that their own supporters can barely recognise. This is particularly relevant this year as the better players from the "bigger" teams will just have played in the World Cup and are unlikely to return to their clubs until the end of July. What you will get from Bolton is a good percentage of first-choice players and, in my opinion, it gives you a chance to have a look and see how you fare against a club from what is currently recognised as the best league in the world. I have no experience of Canadian football, and no knowledge of how good the quality is, so for me, it's a great chance to see up close how good your league is. Just my thoughts. And by the way, I take no offence at any of you over your thoughts on my club coming to play you. Totally understandable..........and nowhere near the level of vitriol that we get from rival supporters in the EPL
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Expect a level of somewhere are around low end Championship or high level division 1 (what is now division 1... please stop changing the names every year!) Anyway, Bolton is a good respectable club and we're happy to have you over.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Well normally i would say your right..many 2nd team players from big clubs...but I have to say that Montreal Impact got AC Milan and the goal scorers...Pato, Inzaghi, Seedorf and Ronaldhino....hmmmm no 2nd team players there. I have no ill will toward Bolton and they are a Premiership team, but in comparison to even Montreal who isnt even in the MLS id say they got the better deal in this...why did they get an Italian team...Joey Saputo. Man, i wish Joey Saputo would trade teams with MLSE. Instead of chip buttys and scotch eggs, Grilled Saputo Buffalo Mozzarella Cheese Sandwiches......and instead of Bolton Wanderers...AC Milan Anyway, bring them on...one day maybe MLSE will notice that Toronto has a large Italian community...and from the people i see down at BMO they should check the SSH names between the 35 yard lines and see how many end in a vowel.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Toronto has large communities from everywhere in the world, not just Italy. There are just as many, if not more, Chinese and Portuguese people here, and we've never played a club from either of those countries... nor had any Chinese or Portuguese players. I don't hear them whinging.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Uhhh....where is Benfica from? Secondly....name a Chinese club team...name even one without looking it up. Thought so. Having an Italian team come here has very little to do (for me) with giving the Italians in the GTA a reason to come to BMO. It has everything to do with bringing a huge club...and there are a few of those in Italy...unlike Portugal or China. No offence to either of those domestic leagues of course. They just don't have clubs like AC Milan, Inter or Juventus. But carry on picking fights Poly....I don't mind your WHINGING?????
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Forget watching the Bolton game....I would pay to see both of you debate in person this topic!
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 It has nothing to do with a reason for the Italians to come to BMO...im being selfish as a Canadian Italian that I WANT to see a team that I FOLLOW for once from one of the best leagues in the world alongside La Liga, Premiership, Bundesliga. Id be happy to see a big German team coming in as well (after Italian of course). Most importantly the teams are HERE NOW..Man U, Celtic, AC Milan, Juve, Fiorentina on a NA tour. AC MILAN could easily have done Montreal then Toronto without breaking a sweat...Im not sure the FO did any investigating whether they could get them. Again, I got nothing against Bolton or their supporters...Im sure they are ecstatic...but im sure the team is coming in specifically for this game...nothing else. So why the effort of TFC to attract them when they could just reach out to one of those teams coming here anyway. I rephrase my earlier statements that everything that TFC does smells of catering to the English supporters, to TFC have brought in plenty of England sides, a Portuguese team, a Spanish team, Argentinian, south american...players from SA and England have donned the red jersey so good for them....now how about working toward giving some of the TFC faithful with Italian descent a sniff. (Again, Mtl played AC MILAN with scoring from Pato, Ronaldhino, Inzaghi and Seedorf, unfortunately I cant name a Bolton player) I thought our slogan was All for One, suggesting that TFC understands the multicultural element of the city...and marketed strongly to that!!!! So include us all eventually and up to this point there has not been anything for the Italo-Canadian community (which by World Cup experiences is fairly large in this city) There did i explain my feelings better without pissing off Poly or anyone else that seem to always disagree with me on this point?
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 I am neither picking fights, nor whinging... just wonder why some fans get so fickle sometimes. Edit: if you guys want to post rants on discussion boards without other people expressing other views on the issue, then fine. Call it "picking fights" all you want, it's your perrogative. I'll save my posts for those willing to discuss. So rant away, I'll be at the game enjoying a game between TFC and a good quality club.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 My two cents......I think the reason that clubs from England who are lower/mid level are brought here because name/brand recognition goes deeper given the level of coverage the EPL gets here. If you accept, as I do, that the dollars available for the game that is included in the STH package are fairly limited you recognize that the "included" game cannot be a big name from any of the leagues you mentioned. Just as this game cannot be Man U..it can't be Bayern Munich or Barcelona or Milan/Inter/Juve.....the game would, simply, be a money loser for MLSE and you know that is not going to happen. Teams like Bolton and West Ham benefit from the exposure they get by being on our tvs every week playing against Liverpool/Man U/Chelsea/Arsenal.....rightly or wrongly, the Spanish/Italian/German leagues do not get as much broad coverage or exposure here. So, who are the Bolton Wanderers of the Italian league? Would people here (not just Italian-Canadians) know that? Just by the fact you can discuss Bolton in the fashion you have shows that the EPL "lesser lights" are known beyond their traditional "ethnic community"....I am not sure that you can say that about the other leagues. So, when MLSE searches for a mid-level euro team their choices are bigger clubs from smaller leagues (Benfica is a good example, a huge club but from a - no offense - tier II euro league) or smaller clubs from bigger leagues.....and the English teams of that ilk have the highest profile/brand recognition.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 your points are fair, but you cant say there isnt coverage of italian soccer. actually TLN is in most people's cable plan and they cover at least 3 games a week and people are familiar with serie A as there are other talents there other than italian on those teams. Dont kid yourself..no one at MLSE is losing money. Like I said, what is the cost of having Bolton come in and play..obviously less than AC Milan, MAN U etc...but really by how much when you consider those teams are ALREADY HERE for other friendlies and Bolton to my knowledge is a one off in North America and out. 2nd point...other MLS teams (and the Impact) are able to bring these teams to play the local side so why are we different in getting "tier 1" teams for us. Oh wait, we did in Real Madrid, but of course that cost us HUGE..and im assuming that was for the 1 time grass use..that excuse is gone. Why do we have to accept the thought that a "tier 1" team would not work for us becuase MLSE would lose money. Philly playing Celtic (1st year in league) NYRB - Juve (and Man City and Totenham for what its worth) KC playing Man U DC united - AC Milan Chicago - PSG (ok, average, but still more cache than Bolton) Chivas - obviously catering to their 90% spanish/mexican supporters which is ok Houston is hosting the allstar game vs Man U Seattle - Celtic Dallas - INTER MILAN SJ - Tottenham (same as Bolton really) LA - several friendlies including INTER MILAN so, as the "best" fans in the MLS (Seattle will put up a fight on that one) dont we deserve similar to some of the big names above...remember they are here. As TFC was one of what, 2, that made money in MLS cant they give us the same. My preference is Italian. There are other big names up there as well.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 ^The economics and supply and demand are, simply, different. With season tickets comprising such a large percentage of the gate at BMO, they have essentially locked in their revenue at "MLS" price levels. So, irrespective of what is printed on the face of the ticket, their average revenue per seat is low. Two examples (from opposite ends of the price spectrum) 2010 ST in the south end cost $280.87 ($323 after gst and pst but the club does not get that).....that is the lowest ticket in the house and they are, mostly, sold out to STH. That means the entire south end gains entry to the "included friendly" match for $15.60. The most expensive seats (excluding boxes and tables) in the house are the club seats in section 123 (100% sold to season ticket holders)....Season's tickets in that section this year are (pre gst and pst)..$1,420.87...so, again, the best seats in the house are getting into the friendly at $79. With only about 5,000 seats left to sell at the "inflated" face value on the tickets, there simply is not enough potential revenue left to pay the appearance fees for the larger clubs....it is simple as that. Remember last year the Real Madrid match leaked to the media before the club confirmed it. It was a couple of weeks before any MLSE rep would confrim the match. That was because they had to confirm and announce another friendly with a cheaper club to make sure the economics of the included match worked and that then they could market the RM match as a bonus friendly that was outside the season ticket package. Why can other clubs do it? Well for one they may have lower profit thresholds to meet because they may view the friendly as a way to build a customer base....which is simply not necessary here. Secondly, they also have lower percentages of season ticket holders and/or the availability of a larger stadium making it easier to make up the economics from the extra tickets. Thirdly, you have to look at whether the games were/are included in their season ticket packages. If they are not, then every ticket to match represents new revenue and can be priced according to the level/cost of the opposition. Yes, I know the Italian league games are on TLN but you have to admit that exposure does not match what the EPL gets through its carriage on the combination of Sportsnet/Setanta/The Score. Anyway, try it sometime.....ask sports fans of different levels of soccer knowledge from different ethnic groups to name as many teams in the EPL that they can and ask them to name as many from the other leagues.....betchya they can name a lot more English teams (btw...this is just an opinion of mine...I am not English either...but I have given up fighting the popularity of the EPL).
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 I think it's also fair to point out that teams are here now are generally missing their stars for world cup duty. I also am glad TFC did not schedule a friendly during the NCC - what with the tight schedule with two games a week for basically the last six weeks - that would be poor form to add another game to the mix. If anything I'd rather that TFC not play meaningless friendlies mid season, though that's unrealistic. I'm glad we limit the friendlies to teams in pre-season mode, in July and August.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 -only a handful go to larger stadiums on friendlies, otherwise we have above average size in comparison to the league -yes some of those games against tier 1 for other MLS teams will be an extra cost -yes i would agree that most casual fans would be able to name more EPL teams -economics of having a full stadium for each and every game also shows an overall larger revenue on the balance sheet than most teams in the league..hence profits for TFC where others are losing. Id rather know my revenue source is 95% covered for every game before the first whistle of the season than worry about inflated pricing or having to count on game day walk ups...or the economics of one single gate (friendly) -Our season ticket packages are on pair with other teams in the lower ranges, but in the upper ranges TFC is higher per ticket cost than other MLS teams -its nice to have 20000 guaranteed each and every game, instead of 10000 or 11000...and by that logic of being able to have inflated single game tickets TFC would be getting larger tier 1 teams if we didnt have 95% season ticket holders? -end result. We treat the team well in supporting them, they should strive to over achieve in treating us..and yes i understand economics, especially MLSE economics. topic exhausted.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 You lot can argue about it all you want! I'm looking forward to it
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 That's the spirit - don't let the bickering get you down. This argument has been simmering since our first season anyway.
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 Ha ha I won't. I love away games and if I'm travelling 3500 miles I'm going to enjoy myself
Re: Bolton Wanderers to come to Toronto on July 21 47000 fans were at the Montreal vs AC Milan game last night. Fiorentina just recently played Montreal as well. The Italian community in Montreal is nowhere near the size of Toronto's but Italian teams are still brought in with success. The TFC isn't playing the Man U's or Chelsea's true, but all i'm saying is at least 1 Italian team, at least once.