For my part, that you perform the functions that Tom did, I think it's great. You will have my help as much as I can. In relation to Pele, you're right, it was not extreme left, although surely if they had put him in that position, he would not have done anything wrong. The reason for putting it is the one I presented. However, if it had no place, I could make a modification without a problem.
Sure, yeah, if Pele in his best form (of 1968/69), or even moreso Cruyff possibly, was chosen at left-wing in a 4-2-4 in some kind of 68/69 select XI to play another team then it could still be a great solution probably (and the other team would have their hands full containing him)! Yeah, between us hopefully we can fulfil Tom's role, until such a time as he wants to take charge of things again. comme has already kicked off the 69/70 thread using annoyedbyneedoflogin's post (so he is the thread starter in effect) as you've probably seen. Maybe Tom will still have chance to give a quick instruction or opinion on the left wing choices and which would be valid.
What a big joke to rate Muller above Cruijff for this year. The umpteenth pro German and anti Dutch call by you, I move you Spaniard to the enemies list now. The masters of propaganda (and buying referees, and a FIFA license to cheat as in 1966) are sadly winning over time.
I might as well add a Team of the Season vote now anyway, and confirm my podium selections as per normal: Finalists Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Pele (Santos, Brazil) Winner Pele (Santos, Brazil) Team of the Season Forward: Pele (Santos, Brazil) Forward: Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Left Wing: Dzajic, Dragan (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia) Right Wing: Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Attacking Mid: Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy) Center Mid: Murdoch, Bobby (Celtic, Scotland) Left Back: Cooper, Terry (Leeds United, England) Right Back: Carlos Alberto (Santos, Brazil) Center Back: Moore, Bobby (West Ham United, England) Center Back: Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Goalkeeper: Zoff, Dino (Napoli, Italy)
I also see an El Gráfico issue from early 1969 naming Baylon as the best RW, obviously peruvian press had been saying the same, pre WC70
It is true. Baylon was very well considered. I have seen in different readings that stardom in Peru was very divided between Challe, Cubillas, Chumpitaz, Sotil, Mifflin and Baylon himself. And it is necessary to recognize that Peru had a competitive selection that was able to eliminate Argentina clearly in the WC 1970 classification.
In these moments, after the votes that have been offered, there are 23 players with higher score than the rest. Although there was a multiple draw at the end of this list, with the votes for the best XI, this equality has been undone. If someone wants to make some more votes, do it. If not, in a few days, I would say that the list could be published as "final".
While there are no more votes, this would be the top 23 of the 1968-69 season: Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (6 votes) Bene, Ferenc (Ujpest, Hungary) (5 votes) Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) (7 votes) Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland) (5 votes) Carlos Alberto Torres (Santos, Brazil) (4 votes) Chumpitaz, Héctor (Universitario, Peru) (4 votes) Cooper, Terry (Leeds United, England) (2 votes) Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) (7 votes) Cudicini, Fabio (AC Milan, Italy) (2 votes) Dzajic, Dragan (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia) (4 votes) Kindvall, Ove (Feyenoord, Sweden) (5 votes) Kuna, Ladislav (Spartak Trnava, Czechoslovakia) (4 votes) Lubanski , Wlodzimierz (Gornik Zabrze, Poland) (3 votes) Mazurkiewicz (Peñarol, Uruguay) (3 votes) Muller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (6 votes) Moore, Bobby (West Ham, England) (4 votes) Murdoch, Bobby (Celtic, Scotland) (3 votes) Pele (Santos, Brazil) (7 votes) Prati, Pierino (AC Milan, Italy) (6 votes) Riva, Luigi (Cagliari, Italy) (5 votes) Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy) (7 votes) Schnellinger, Karl-Heinz (AC Milan) (2 votes) Tostao (Cruzeiro, Brazil) (6 votes) Clarification: The number of times they were voted in the XI of the season served to tie the players with 2 votes. But there is a triple tie in the 23rd place, since Schnellinger and the next two who are next have 2 votes for the top 23 and one for the XI. How do we solve it? Gallego, Francisco (Barcelona, España) (2 votes) Meléndez, Julio (Boca Juniors, Peru) (2 votes) These would be the players with honorable mention: Adamec, Jozef (Spartak Trnava, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Amancio (Real Madrid, Spain) (1 vote) Asparuhov, Georgi (Levski Sofia, Bulgaria) (1 vote) Banks, Gordon (Stoke City, England) (1 vote) Bjerregaard, Johnny (Rapid Vienna, Denmark) (1 vote) Callaghan, Tommy (Dunfermline Athletic, Scotland) (1 vote) De Sisti, Giancarlo (Fiorentina, Italy) (1 vote) Denya, Kazimierz (Legia Warsaw, Poland) (1 vote) Dumitrache, Florea (Dinamo Bucarest, Romania) (1 vote) Dunai, Antal (Ujpest, Hungary) (1 vote) Edu (Santos, Brazil) (1 vote) Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal) (1 vote) Facchetti, Giacinto (Internazionale, Italy) (1 vote) Figueroa, Elías (Peñarol, Chile) (1 vote) Fraser, Doug (West Bromwich Albion, Scotland) (1 vote) Gerson (Botafogo, Brazil) (1 vote) Giles, Johnny (Leeds United, Ireland) (1 vote) Greaves, Jimmy (Tottenham, England) (1 vote) Jairzinho (Botafogo, Brazil) (1 vote) Johanessen, Karl Johan (SFK Lyn, Norway) (1 vote) Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland) (1 vote) Jokl, Karol (Slovan Bratislava, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Keizer, Piet (Ajax, Netherlands) (2 votes) Lee, Francis (Manchester City, England) (2 votes) Maier, Sepp (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (1 vote) Meléndez, Julio (Boca Juniors, Peru) (2 votes) Moncur, Bobby (Newcastle, Scotland) (1 vote) Muntyan, Vladimir (Dynamo Kiev, Soviet Union) (2 votes) Netzer, Gunter (Borussia Mönchengladbach, West Germany) (1 vote) Overath, Wolfgang (Koln, West Germany) (1 vote) Papaioannou, Mimis (AEK Athens, Greece) (1 vote) Penev, Dimitar (CSKA Sofia, Bulgaria) (1 vote) Peters, Martin (West Ham, England) (1 vote) Prieto, Ignacio (Nacional, Chile) (1 vote) Rivelino, Roberto (Corinthians, Brazil) (1 vote) Schulz, Willi (Hamburger, West Germany) (1 vote) Shesternyov, Albert (CSKA Moscow, Soviet Union) (1 vote) Van Hanegem, Wim (Feyenoord, Netherlands) (2 votes) Van Moer, Wilfried (Standard de Liège, Belgium) (2 votes) Velázquez, Manuel (Real Madrid, España) (1 vote) Vencel, Alexander (Slovan Bratislava, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Vogts, Berti (Borussia Monchengladbach, West Germany) (1 vote) Zhekov, Petar (CSKA Sofia, Bulgaria) (2 votes) Zoff, Dino (Napoli, Italy) (1 vote) XI of the season Forward: Pelé (Santos, Brazil) Forward: Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Left Wing: Riva, Luigi (Cagliari, Italy) (5 votes) Right Wing: Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) Attacking Mid: Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy) Center Mid: Murdoch, Bobby (Celtic, Scotland) Left Back: Cooper, Terry (Leeds United, England) Right Back: Carlos Alberto (Santos, Brazil) Center Back: Moore, Bobby (West Ham United, England) Center Back: Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) Goalkeeper: Cudicini, Fabio (AC Milan, Italy) Clarification: The player who has the most votes in the top 23 appears in the XI of the season. Winner Pelé (Santos, Brazil) Finalists Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy)
Hmm, Melendez and Van Hanegem were both close to my TOTS for what it's worth, but I don't suppose that helps a lot! In the end I felt that for this season putting Murdoch in there as feasibly more the anchor player in role might be the best call, and when I'd ruled out slotting Beckenbauer into that midfield role that also ruled Melendez in my XI. I think you'll have tallied less TOTS votes than votes for the 23? I wonder if it's possible to determine whether any players on 2 votes would have secured any extra TOTS votes by default (Muntyan for the midfield role maybe?).
To be fair, this vote might justify Schnellinger being retained (again, I'm prioritising the collective vote in saying that just like in 1966/67 when I did suggest at one point Pirri should take the CM/DM slot in the TOTS when I'd voted for Murdoch even though after all votes came in then Murdoch got the nod anyway). He was playing as a centre-back in the EC Final I think wasn't he, but as a LB for example vs Man Utd away, and @Ariaga II doesn't have a different left-back (I'm not being thorough enough with checks this morning Titanlux but you'll already know whether Schnellinger's TOTS vote comes from yourself atm as I assume - I didn't recall Arriaga posting a TOTS for this year yet but could be wrong!). Whether or not @peterhrt casted a TOTS vote, looking at his 23 we couldn't assume that Muntyan would get a place in it anyway and you were the other one to vote for Muntyan Titanlux I think weren't you? Again from memory, I think @Tom Stevens may have been the other one to vote for Van Hanegem, so I'm not sure if he was persuaded/convinced enough himself to put him in his TOTS. annoyedbyneedoflogin included Melendez already I believe in the TOTS and nobody else voted for him except me for a place in a 23. Not sure how much this helps?!
The only other thing I could think of to decide the final player for the 23 (which hasn't been suggested before - while Tom's suggestion of favouring defensive players wouldn't help spilt Schnellinger, Gallego, Melendez any further in itself) would be a free vote for the final place between all players on 2 votes. My vote would go to Van Hanegem in that case (I think it'd be fair to allow everyone a say, rather than only those who hadn't included any of the players in their own 23s, if that applies to anyone...well probably it will do). I actually suggested I'd be thinking of him as possibly in a top 10 vote but that obviously can't be used in itself as most people weren't indicating their top 10s. So failing any last minute TOTS votes still coming in, maybe that's an option? It could be open to anyone to pick between those players for a few days maybe (and hopefully there wouldn't be a tie lol, but we might have ways to resolve that potentially with TOTS votes maybe anyway??) Otherwise maybe Schnellinger taking the place, but Cooper keeping his TOTS place (based on actual confirmed TOTS votes), makes some kind of sense, given Schnellinger did play in multiple roles too evidently.
My TOTS: Mazurkiewicz Vogts, Beckenbauer, Schulz, Schnellinger Bremner, Rivera Best, Muller, Cruyff, Riva Interesting how it ended up being an all-German defensive line. Top 3: 1. Rivera 2. Riva 3. Muller
As usual I tend to agree with most of your choices (also the ones you name that were close). Pele did not achieve something major (except the state league) with his club team and maybe you can ask (minor) questions about his performance against top national teams but other than that he was in great form. I don't see how people can think a Rivera (not good for national team, low productivity this season) or Muller is ahead of him; Muller did nothing as an individual that Pele didn't do. Same applies for Riva (his hat-trick against Wales etc. is not of the category that Pele didn't do). For me Pele was #1 and am 'shocked' to see losing out against all of Rivera, Riva and Muller (not just one of those, but all of them by titanlux et al.). Reaching the European Cup final with 'lowly' Ajax with 6 goals and 6 assists (+ creating penalty in final against a very tight defense) is already a major accomplishment (team came in trouble when he left the semi final injured), but as usual it fails to register, with the team as a whole getting more praise/accolades than the individuals. He didn't qualify for the World Cup of course, played only two qualification matches, but did well to very well in the national team games he played in (produced in both qualifying matches too; the England match getting big praise and applause in The Times). In other years the likes of Keegan and a number of others did not qualify for a tournament either but then apparently the weight of England is such it doesn't matter. Cruijff did great against the English champs of 68, 69 as well (in friendlies). Number three is harder. One of Tostao, Best, Muller, Riva for me. Possibly Best is the primary option, despite him not qualifying (also for him applies: did great in the games he played in, arguably vs England greater than Pele his display).
Just to clarify for everyone, I wanted to add a rep here even though I often leave them off posts with arguments in (including of course generally good posts that contain a section that might annoy someone, like Puck himself for example) because I realise I repped a post earlier with a podium that I knew Puck might not like or agree with (to recognise the contribution of Ariaga especially after my tag might have alerted him today anyway, and because it's normal for me to rep a lot of the TOTS and selection of the 23 players posts etc), and also because I do understand/agree with a lot of Puck's arguments and they are also presented in a very reasonable way (even if he is annoyed, he is hiding it particularly well this time) and also I am addressed directly. I think the arguments can stand as an opinion, and I don't know but maybe Titanlux will be able to include a podium vote of Puck too (if he settles on a 3rd player finally) in the final assessments (maybe it wouldn't change much now, but it could at least offset the new confirmed top 3 of Ariaga in those respects and confirm nothing changes overall or something - I haven't tallied the votes myself and Titanlux is doing a great job being the main man with the organising in Tom's absence I do think). Whether Puck you would like to contribute a TOTS in full, in 4-2-4 formation as normal, like @Perú FC has done previously without naming 23 players originally (I'm tagging now in case he also wants to again, now I think of it) I don't know.... I guess it wouldn't be a problem for Titanlux to just adjust the totals now again, even though it seemed like no more votes were coming anyway.
* I meant of course with arguments that directly/forcefully (although I re-iterate I think Puck was definitely reasonable here) challenge the views/contributions of others; not just arguments in the general sense but more like quarrels. Anyway, of course everyone is free to vote how they see fit, and we all have a limited amount of info/footage etc to go on and come to our own conclusions and it works well and as fairly as possible (although we can all disagree with the consensus obviously) to combine the views and votes equally in the end. I would clarify too that no names people are including seem bizarre as such or unfathomable, and I think Puck feels that too (a number of names he conclusively puts below Pele/Cruyff here he still names as among the following pack). I'd also clarify that I didn't only place Cruyff over Rivera myself for example to please Puck, as I'd have come to that conclusion anyway, although probably it's still true I'm slightly more sympathetic to the Rivera case for this season ultimately(but again like I said we all have to form our own impressions weighing things up as best we can) but me and Puck would certainly not wish to be mirroring each others views/votes exactly anyway I'm sure!
Thanks to ariaga II we can clarify something the XI ideal of the season. We could put Bremner in Murdoch's place since, although both have two votes in the XI, Bremner has more votes in the top 23. XI of the season Forward: Pelé (Santos, Brazil) (4 votes) Forward: Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) (5 votes) Left Wing: Riva, Luigi (Cagliari, Italy) (2 votes) Right Wing: Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) (4 votes) Attacking Mid: Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy) (4 votes) Center Mid: Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland) (2 votes) Left Back: Cooper, Terry (Leeds United, England) (3 votes) Right Back: Carlos Alberto (Santos, Brazil) (3 votes) Center Back: Moore, Bobby (West Ham United, England) (1 votes) Center Back: Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (4 votes) Goalkeeper: Cudicini, Fabio (AC Milan, Italy) (2 votes)
The Top 3 does not change: Winner Pelé (Santos, Brazil) Finalists Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy)
With the arriaga votes, the problem of the 23rd player of the Top 23 is solved when entering Schnellinger in his ideal XI. TOP 23 Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (6 votes) Bene, Ferenc (Ujpest, Hungary) (5 votes) Best, George (Manchester United, Northern Ireland) (7 votes) Bremner, Billy (Leeds United, Scotland) (5 votes) Carlos Alberto Torres (Santos, Brazil) (4 votes) Chumpitaz, Héctor (Universitario, Peru) (4 votes) Cooper, Terry (Leeds United, England) (2 votes) Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands) (7 votes) Cudicini, Fabio (AC Milan, Italy) (2 votes) Dzajic, Dragan (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia) (4 votes) Kindvall, Ove (Feyenoord, Sweden) (5 votes) Kuna, Ladislav (Spartak Trnava, Czechoslovakia) (4 votes) Lubanski , Wlodzimierz (Gornik Zabrze, Poland) (3 votes) Mazurkiewicz (Peñarol, Uruguay) (3 votes) Muller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (6 votes) Moore, Bobby (West Ham, England) (4 votes) Murdoch, Bobby (Celtic, Scotland) (3 votes) Pele (Santos, Brazil) (7 votes) Prati, Pierino (AC Milan, Italy) (6 votes) Riva, Luigi (Cagliari, Italy) (5 votes) Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy) (7 votes) Schnellinger, Karl-Heinz (AC Milan) (2 votes) Tostao (Cruzeiro, Brazil) (6 votes) H.M. Adamec, Jozef (Spartak Trnava, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Amancio (Real Madrid, Spain) (1 vote) Asparuhov, Georgi (Levski Sofia, Bulgaria) (1 vote) Banks, Gordon (Stoke City, England) (1 vote) Bjerregaard, Johnny (Rapid Vienna, Denmark) (1 vote) Callaghan, Tommy (Dunfermline Athletic, Scotland) (1 vote) De Sisti, Giancarlo (Fiorentina, Italy) (1 vote) Denya, Kazimierz (Legia Warsaw, Poland) (1 vote) Dumitrache, Florea (Dinamo Bucarest, Romania) (1 vote) Dunai, Antal (Ujpest, Hungary) (1 vote) Edu (Santos, Brazil) (1 vote) Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal) (1 vote) Facchetti, Giacinto (Internazionale, Italy) (1 vote) Figueroa, Elías (Peñarol, Chile) (1 vote) Fraser, Doug (West Bromwich Albion, Scotland) (1 vote) Gallego, Francisco (Barcelona, España) (2 votes) Gerson (Botafogo, Brazil) (1 vote) Giles, Johnny (Leeds United, Ireland) (1 vote) Greaves, Jimmy (Tottenham, England) (1 vote) Jairzinho (Botafogo, Brazil) (1 vote) Johanessen, Karl Johan (SFK Lyn, Norway) (1 vote) Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland) (1 vote) Jokl, Karol (Slovan Bratislava, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Keizer, Piet (Ajax, Netherlands) (2 votes) Lee, Francis (Manchester City, England) (2 votes) Maier, Sepp (Bayern Munich, West Germany) (1 vote) Meléndez, Julio (Boca Juniors, Peru) (2 votes) Moncur, Bobby (Newcastle, Scotland) (1 vote) Muntyan, Vladimir (Dynamo Kiev, Soviet Union) (2 votes) Netzer, Gunter (Borussia Mönchengladbach, West Germany) (1 vote) Overath, Wolfgang (Koln, West Germany) (1 vote) Papaioannou, Mimis (AEK Athens, Greece) (1 vote) Penev, Dimitar (CSKA Sofia, Bulgaria) (1 vote) Peters, Martin (West Ham, England) (1 vote) Prieto, Ignacio (Nacional, Chile) (1 vote) Rivelino, Roberto (Corinthians, Brazil) (1 vote) Schulz, Willi (Hamburger, West Germany) (1 vote) Shesternyov, Albert (CSKA Moscow, Soviet Union) (1 vote) Van Hanegem, Wim (Feyenoord, Netherlands) (2 votes) Van Moer, Wilfried (Standard de Liège, Belgium) (2 votes) Velázquez, Manuel (Real Madrid, España) (1 vote) Vencel, Alexander (Slovan Bratislava, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Viktor, Ivo (Dukla Prague, Czechoslovakia) (1 vote) Vogts, Berti (Borussia Monchengladbach, West Germany) (1 vote) Zhekov, Petar (CSKA Sofia, Bulgaria) (2 votes) Zoff, Dino (Napoli, Italy) (1 vote)