I guess it's worth clarifying whether Kindvall was ineligible for this ranking (only a mid-season one anyway) that you posted in the 67/68 thread Puck: I'm thinking he probably was, as it is a ranking of Dutch players, not players playing in the Netherlands...? To clarify again, Cruyff, Van Beveren, and Israel are picked out as the World-Class players at that point, but to that point in the season Van Hanegem, Pahlplatz and Rensenbrink are leading the way in terms of the placings they are given by that newspaper based on 68/69 performances to date (Puck will correct me if any of that is wrong I'm sure).
Damn, sorry, Dzajic is not top Eastern European in the Ballon d'Or list for 1969 (I'd not realised/remembered Zhekov (I think - typed as Peter Jekov but I think it is him) and also Shesternyev were slightly above him in the results): http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy69.html Muntian is on one point like Lubanski and Deyna anyway. I know Lubanski could well have got his point in large part due to the start to 69/70, but I believe he did have a generally very good 68/69 in Poland, as usual. The goals against Luxembourg can be considered easy I guess, but maybe that's a bit unfair. Cruyff had an all-timer dribble before laying on a goal that was given as offside against the same Luxembourg if I remember correctly this season too! As Peterhrt pointed out in his post Dzajic was clearly top Eastern European in the 1968 Ballon d'Or voting of course. Obviously what he did in 67/68 playing a big part for him getting so many votes, but I guess his start to 68/69 too - I think it was Albert wasn't it that praised him for his display against Brazil for the FIFA XI at the end of 1968 (unfortunately I don't think the first half of the game is available/viewable, even though most of the second half is on YouTube - I would think the whole game was shown at the time). I'm not sure if that was when Pele said he wished Dzajic was Brazilian etc too, or whether that was later. https://www.goal.com/en-india/news/...74/euro-1968-legends-dragan-dzajic-yugoslavia "Dzajic is the Balkan miracle, a real wizard. I'm just sorry he's not Brazilian because I've never seen such a natural footballer."
Despite the final loss (a few injuries and poor tactics didn't help) Ajax climbed this time to #1 in the France Football club ranking (England was voted #1 national team for 1968-69). It is by the way interesting that all of Best, Pelé and Cruijff played twice against England around this time (I'd say Pelé is actually a step behind the other two here, in particular his summer 1969 game). Bobby Charlton said/wrote march 1969 that "Ajax is the team to beat" - in the full article he says they're the best team. It's once again clear the team was rated well, but were the individuals? (cf. current Atletico Madrid) Brian Glanville thought so and filled him in at #1 for the BdO (I checked in the Sunday Times and 'delpher' archive). Searching in the Brazilian papers I found this from early 1969 in Jornal do Sport (the very first reference came in 1966 when they beat the Spanish national team in a friendly): One West German paper called 'Sport Kurier' (from the South) had this after the end of the 1968-69 season (good to note here is at the end of the 1970s they apparently ranked JC14 #2 all-time behind/next to Pelé, like so many did): Only Eusebio (beaten by Ajax) is not from a major country, himself an obvious world beater. This is all extremely subjective clearly (G. Muller doesn't feature), even professional scouts struggle with it, but like I said * I think * it is all more obvious to see over a slightly longer period of time. Then one can notice various 'hard facts' and weigh that against each other (or they enhance each other, like 'extremely high added wins + all-time/decade high win percentages'). 'Goal' magazine, after talks with British managers, estimated at the end of 1969 his market value to be a million; the landmark Marshall Cavendish encyclopedia of 1970 well over a million. Guerin Sportivo also concluded (late 1969) he's worth well over a world record.
I can't remember now, but yeah if that's right something seems wrong. It wasn't 5 games in the first phase and more in the second phase (I'm not saying you're wrong, but just checking you're sure yourself)? Anyway, that's last season I guess and I certainly was putting more emphasis on the 1968 part of it for him myself definitely.
Saw the Mundo Deportivo ratings of the final that was played in Madrid. Prati was MOTM (which is about right I'd say). http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1969/05/29/pagina-27/948883/pdf.html
Those individual problems of Best started in 1969-70 wasn't it? Then it was starting to influence his availability and mobility I think. Denis Law also said he had the form until 1969. I thought against Milan he was maybe better as against Real Madrid a season earlier... (more so the 1st leg)
Yes, I think it is something like that, but I'm not completely sure in terms of the chronology of his issues/drinking etc. Certainly this season seems to be within peak although perhaps with variable form to an extent, and maybe even a dip overall according to Glanville for example as you suggested in late 1968, before some great form after Christmas (in the end the Buchan poll has him high up of course). The Rapid Vienna home tie looks to be his stand-out European game I think. But yeah Milan at home perhaps better than Real at home from the previous season - that'd make sense to conclude that I think as he did as much as any United player to rescue the tie (including the dribble and pass to Charlton for the goal) and generally I'd say had a very good second half to the match. IIRC I scored him 7.5 out of 10 (perhaps 4 out of 6 converted to France Football scale), but Rivera 8.5 and MOTM. Personally I think I'd go with Rivera as MOTM in the Final too, but I think it is true that although a nicely done video, somehow the Cruyff vs Rivera YouTube video does over-emphasise Rivera doing better (I'm sure not SebFootball's intention - he was just picking out the moments of danger, invention etc from both but it seems even more a 'perfect'/brilliant display from Rivera on that video and ends up emphasising Cruyff losing possession when running - maybe in the context of watching the whole match it's evident that Cruyff adds impetus and Rivera does give away the ball a few times himself...but yeah in the end I feel 9 for Rivera is still ok as he does influence the play and result majorly and has some class moments).
I am curious about this ranking and classification of Dutch players. How long did this paper issue such rankings and is it known whether there is a statistical evaluation of all rankings in any kind of form?
Regarding the question at which point Karl-Heinz Schnellinger switched from left back to libero for AC Milan: The easiest way to determine this is to look at his shirt number in each league game. For those days the shirt number is usually a reliable indicator in the absence of video footage. 1967-68 No. 3 in every league game (Malatrasi mostly no. 5) 1968-69 No. 3 in every leageu game except the very last day wearing no. 5 (Malatrasi mostly no. 5) 1969-70 No. 3 in every league game (Maldera and Malatrasi mostly no. 5) 1970-71 No. 5 in every league game 1971-72 No. 5 in every league game Thus I would suggest Nereo Rocco made Schnellinger libero at the start of the 1970-71 season. Malatrasi had left Milan in 1970 and Schnellinger did very well for Germany as sweeper in the 1970 World Cup.
I know the following will go un-adressed (not by you, which I always appreciate) but I'd seriously doubt Rivera his viability for the top group. From a technical perspective I don't doubt his footballing pedigree. There might have been Italian discussions about him as a luxury player, but in a technical sense everything is there. Passing, dribbling, shooting, first touch. The same can be said about the other candidates though (or are there people who don't rate Pele, Tostao, Best and Cruijff his all-round class that high? And why?). If we look at his national team games, the ones he got to play in, then it was nothing special (didn't score and if I'm not mistaken only 1 or 0 assists, against Wales but that's hardly a test of pedigree). Italy did just as well or better without him (beating GDR 3-0 in the qualifiers, the most important and hardest match of this season). While the blame should also go to the staff, there were just many doubts about him and not totally without base. Domestically his form was suspect. Apart from 1964-65 he had the lowest goals totals of his career until that point, had not domestic good ratings either it seems (unlike the previous two seasons not #1 or #2 for Italian footballer of the year either). His 'big game' record looks meh (one goal against Cagliari in an otherwise indistinct game). Milan finished 3rd and got out in the quarters in the Coppa Italia (although Rivera didn't play in the first leg). That is okay, but their 31 league goals saw seven teams doing better (Internazionale scored 80% more goals). It is safe to say this was not the Milan team at their domestic peak. Basically we're left with the European Cup and then in particular the semi finals and the finals (in the 1st semi final Rivera got injured and out early, but Milan won comfortably 2-0). The quarter finals against Celtic weren't that good and Celtic had some calls going against them (handball by Maldera for example; Glanville has some long pages in the 1992 book about how Italian teams bend rules in their favor), and Celtic also complained beforehand about playing in the snow with the lines not visible. Are those two games enough for a 23 spot? Probably that is good enough, but the top group? (Find it funny coincidence btw that in the different versions of the 'GoalImpact' metric a certain Trapattoni is always by a mile the top one of that Milan team...) Goals and assists are not everything but from whatever angle you look at this, I'm far from convinced (this time round I'd say if one thinks away those two EC games, he tends to lose the comparison to a Beckenbauer, and also Deyna who seemed to have been in good international form at this time). I always like it you watch and see a great amount so I know you actually base your bolder calls on something.
What about Vogts this season position wise Gregoriak? It's a bit frustrating for us all I suppose that Gladbach match footage from this time seems to be pretty rare. Re: the Dutch newspaper top 20 - yes would be interesting to see more of that kind of thing for sure - perhaps Puck has an idea if it was a one-off article or something more consistent. Thanks. Just a quick reply for now, having digested the gist of the post at first scan: I would say there are some kind of similarities to Kaka's 06/07 (and 2007) in terms of the fame/recognition coming after perhaps his best run of form (consistency and/or peak) rather than at the same time. Of course those displays count big because of the stage and impact on big trophy won, but I'd add that looking at the Videoteca Milan 1968/69 goals video, he is prominent in getting assists etc early in the season, so his 1968 form perhaps continues pretty well for a while at least. His DBS Calcio rating is decent compared to team-mates overall (especially Prati), so maybe those are things to consider and offset a little bit against the lower goals total, his own assessment that he'd been in a better phase in previous years generally speaking etc. I might be leaning towards Pele for number 1 even but I haven't decided for sure yet - I find it a quite close comparison probably among Europeans Rivera, Cruyff, Best. It might please you to know that if Van Hanegem is available as central midfielder (I don't see why not, even if the TOTS XI won't line up quite as Feyenoord did) then I'll probably include him in my Team of the Season selection, concluding that Beckenbauer goes back to sweeper/CB and therefore maybe Melendez misses out. Here is another favourable comment about Van Hanegem's immediate impact at Feyenoord: "Uit de nalatenschap van het failliete Xerxes/DHC zijn doelman Eddy Treijtel en linkermiddenvelder Willem van Hanegem overgenomen. Van Hanegem is meteen een grote kracht voor Feyenoord. Ook de rechtsbuiten Henk Wery, afkomstig van DOS, blijkt een goede aanwinst. Van de oudere spelers leveren Cor Veldhoen, Piet Romeijn, Guus Haak, Eddy Pieters Graafland en Coen Moulijn ook nog belangrijke bijdragen. Alle Eredivisie-aanvallers vrezen de granieten centrumverdedigers Rinus Israëeuml;l en Theo Laseroms. Wim Jansen is op het middenveld een kanjer en in de spits staat de Zweedse doelpuntenmachine Ove Kindvall. Op de schutterslijst eindigt Kindvall dit seizoen samen met Dick van Dijk bovenaan. Beiden maken dertig goals. Kortom, Feyenoord is een hecht en veelzijdig team, dat ook in internationaal opzicht een belofte inhoudt. Dit Feyenoord grijpt ook nu weer eens de dubbel. De bekerfinale tegen PSV eindigt na een boeiend gevecht in 1-1. Ook de replay is spannend: Feyenoord wint met 2-0. Een mooier afscheid voor coach Ben Peeters is nauwelijks denkbaar. Hij wordt na dit seizoen afgelost door Ernst Happel." "Goalkeeper Eddy Treijtel and left midfielder Willem van Hanegem were taken from the estate of the bankrupt Xerxes / DHC. Van Hanegem is immediately a major force for Feyenoord. The right winger Henk Wery, from DOS, also appears to be a good asset. Among the older players, Cor Veldhoen, Piet Romeijn, Guus Haak, Eddy Pieters Graafland and Coen Moulijn also make important contributions. All Eredivisie attackers fear the granite center defenders Rinus Israëeum; l and Theo Laseroms. Wim Jansen is a big fan in midfield and the Swedish goal machine Ove Kindvall is in the forefront. Kindvall is at the top of the shooters list this season with Dick van Dijk at the top. Both make thirty goals. In short, Feyenoord is a close-knit and versatile team, which also holds a promise internationally. This Feyenoord is once again taking the lead. The cup final against PSV ends after a fascinating fight in 1-1. The replay is also exciting: Feyenoord wins 2-0. A better farewell for coach Ben Peeters is hardly conceivable. He will be relieved by Ernst Happel after this season." https://web.archive.org/web/20071008130800/http://www.eredivisie.nl/subpage.aspx?l1=1667&l2=1668 I don't know though it could be considered for this season that Jansen should be deemed DM/CM, and Van Hanegem CM/AM.... Rivera will be my AM choice I think, and Cruyff/Pele the partnership up front, as much as Tostao is a prominent candidate too, and the actual partnership with Pele shone in this year of course.
I had a look at the tactical lineups issued by Kicker for 1968-69 and according to these he played the following roles: Central Defender 23 games (14 as stopper/9 as sweeper - but this differentiation is not absolutely safe) Right back 6 games Left back 2 games Midfielder 3 games He scored 8 goals that season (none of them penalties - 6 at home, 2 away). He was the second-best rated player according to Kicker grades. In the Kicker Rangliste in July 1969 he was rated as "world class" as full back (#1 in that position) and as "international class" as central defender (#3 central defender). In these rankings it was also important that he played exclusively as full back for Germany. In the December 1968 rangliste he was listed as the #1 full back (and for the first time assessed as "world class").
Thanks, yeah I remember you mentioning he attacked quite well in his younger days, and I'd noticed the goals tally but I guess some might be from set-pieces and not so many from overlapping full-back play given those appearance statistics. I'd suggest for Team of the Season consideration, he could be picked as centre-back or right-back then perhaps this time, but not left-back. He's lining up as right-back in both these International games: https://footballia.net/matches/scotland-germany-world-cup-qualification https://footballia.net/matches/france-germany-friendly And I think he's wearing number 3 but playing as a centre-back here: https://footballia.net/matches/germany-austria-world-cup-qualification
Yes I think all the publicity around Pelé his 1000th goal clouds things a bit, but was in better form as the previous years. He was for the first time in 4 years topscorer again in the Paulista and only 2 goals removed from topscorer in the Brasileiro. He was this time not outscored by his team-mates (which is as it should be). For the national team things are less obvious but played his part for sure (with him in and some other changes the team started to impress more). I think he's a solid option. I can see a case for Best given his great national team performances (enhanced by the British media somewhat but they were legitimately great) and the context his club team was in. He missed the games against a decent Anderlecht team in the European Cup but we can judge him by the others he played. You can say he did consistently well in the big matches (also vs Milan sure) given the state Northern Ireland or United was in (11th in league) - it's the point of the other thread: individual delivery and influence vs (near) trophies. Objectively I don't see a case for Rivera and even more so Tostao placed ahead of Cruijff (which the likes of dearman and peru fc so happily do). Tostao was outstanding for Brazil NT this season, in many games better than Pele, but is just not a better footballer and not the same club achievements (the Minas Gerais state had even a lower population btw). To lead a team like Ajax to the final is in itself a big achievement (domestically Feyenoord was much bigger), even in the context of that time (it was the smallest team at that point, later only arguably surpassed by Malmo). Six goals and a half dozen assists in Europe (excluding the through-ball to the penalty in the final) is also more productive than the best seasons many other greats can show in their best outing, including Maradona, Charlton, Best, Law, Rivera and Eusebio. It doesn't seem to compute or register somehow, nor is there any explanation for it. Add then in things as the national team performances (through-ball assist vs Poland, dribbling through England) and three goals against English champs Man City in friendlies and the somewhat imbalanced evaluations are obvious for me. edit: I forgot the 1969 Brasileiro is not part of this window. The 1968 Brasileiro is part of it and Santos won that (team mate Toninho topscorer, 18 goals in 15? games, Pele 11 goals).
Another quick reply with instant ideas Puck (I did digest your other reply more too now, and it was well thought-out - I think I don't need to add more but I remembered about the Ajax-Benfica 'snowy pitch' game too lol: I'll be checking again but I think Eusebio celebrates in the snow doesn't he after one goal?!). Yeah, I remember on the Big Soccer Members player of the year thread, theorising I'd be unsure about 1968/69 as a season, as a few candidates would come to mind. Like you say the individual contributions and form should hold sway if possible (IMO anyway), so even things like Best's acrobatic assist vs England, for the equaliser but in a loss, can be positives to consider I think. At the same time, like I say Rivera doing so well in the Final, in a famous win gains traction when his overall form wasn't seemingly below par (below his par perhaps in Serie A, but I mean pretty good and at least influencing things in terms of creating goals even if yeah they weren't so much a free-scoring team that season; Prati interestingly did get a couple of impressive hat-tricks so I guess his ratings will be brought down by scoreless games and maybe Rivera being more of a string puller and playmaker in general play might lead to him getting some credit in 'bad games' where Prati doesn't. Prati was still an important and impressive player generally speaking though, and he also gets the bonus with the big impact in the big game I think. I'm sure if Cruyff had the majorly impressive final game I'd not be considering Rivera ahead, although it was certainly interesting to see that set of ratings you posted did have Cruyff on 5 (out of 5?, or 6 as per the France Football scale?), like Prati, and Rivera just on 4. But with the footage available obviously I can see that I don't agree with that, even if that video on YouTube perhaps gives too much of a Rivera>Cruyff impression as we said. I'll refresh my memory of Cruyff's road to the Final anyway, but I'm aware of it being an impressive one and him playing a crucial part and being the talisman of the team. The England game is during 69/70 I think is it? I suppose the 'judging/gauging (as much as possible) the individual level' policy has led to me putting Cruyff higher than others in previous years, including deciding to vote him 1st for 66/67 (when his personal contribution in the EC was also notable, starting away in Besiktas with the fantastic run and assist). So maybe the policy goes against him slightly but others could be putting him 1st and giving you a pleasant surprise. The 'eye test' does work well for him too though, including with that dribble vs Luxembourg even, but certainly it works well for Pele also quite a bit I'd say. Maybe with Cruyff being 9th on that mid-season Dutch player list (but of course being classed as world-class - which can be due to the inherent abilities and also those prior seasons) that sews some possible seeds that like Rivera, he went to the Final without necessarily finding a new level individually, or having a clearly better season (as you know I was sympathetic to your view he could be getting a bit overlooked in 66/67 and 67/68 by some) than before. But we don't know if that changed by the end anyway, and Rivera would be a bit lower than 9th according to DBS Calcio ratings certainly (at the end of the season) - whether lower than 9th in a separate assessment and/or at mid-season we can't be sure I suppose. Like Rivera though also, I think you said Cruyff had picked out other years/seasons as his best ones although can't be sure so could be wrong as I'm recalling a post you made a long time ago now, and IIRC it was later years/seasons he did pick out in that respect and we know he had some great ones and is an all-time great of the highest level! I hope that's ok as a response again, to try to help understand my various thought processes. Like I said I'm unsure exactly how I'll vote at the top end at this moment. If I did go with Cruyff or Best I'd be doing that for a second time, and if I did leave Rivera off my podium I'd be doing that every time (placing him a probable 4th last season). But those considerations shouldn't necessarily come into it, although maybe real Ballon d'Or voters could consider similar things when they had close calls to make. I wouldn't be intending to give Rivera some sort of 'career recognition' award element though, as I'd be trying to stick to trying to call things according to play in the specified period (although we are limited in terms of what we can see and know of course). Again in reality, the way the Ballon d'Or was in those days, I guess some votes for 1969 calendar year (which he won the trophy for) did factor in that element, but likewise I guess without his Final performance (and Milan winning the EC) things would have looked quite different on the results sheet - I suspect that would have been the case anyway.
I am reading "Marca", "As" and "Mundo Deportivo". Before Sunday I can make a summary of the season in Spain and the possible nominations of Spanish players. At the moment I can advance 3 things: a) Amancio is still a very skilful player in dribbling, but individualistic and very irregular. It has admirers and detractors (I am observing that the As and the Brand qualifications are quite different). His world fame is undeniable. It is part of the FIFA XI against Brazil. b) Pirri and Gallego had a good season but suffered injuries that hurt them in their consistency in the game. I doubt that this season is fair to name them, but I have to keep taking data. c) Two modest footballers: Tonono, of Las Palmas, and Glaría, of Español, aim to be the most valued footballers of the year. I may be wrong, but at the moment, I have that impression. In a few days I can include all the details.
Puck, correct me if I'm wrong. From what I have read in the Spanish press of this time, I understand that the best Belgian player of the season was, without a doubt, Van Moer. It is said that, despite his short stature, he was strong, a fighter and had great resistance. He was also smart, with great vision of the game and his technique was excellent. Further back, mention is made of Pilot, Polleunis and, above the previous two, Devrindt, who had a prominent role against Spain. In relation to Van Himst it is said that the Anderlecht coach delayed his position to the center of the field, which, logically, his scorer production went down. However, the Belgian coach had the midfield line quite determined and, when he counted on him, he continued to use it in tip. It does not seem to be his best year.
Nice sources. About the 2nd one, brazilian newspaper is questioning why German Poll (voting 3,000 trainers) didn't pick Tostao, who is praised in having his better form ever, also Di Stefano rated him in the article as the "new Puskas". btw, is very interesting Jairzinho's place, #6 worldwide, not being Jairzinho the best brazilian in the WCQ and I think not among the better in the 1967 brazilian season.
For M.D. these were the better players in the 1968-69 season: Points: Glaría 115 (30) Sadurni 111 (30) Esnaola 108 (30) Martínez 108 (30) -Sabadell- Iborra 105 (30) Ratings: Guedes 3,91 (22) Glaría 3,83 (30) Gallego 3,81 (26) Sadurni 3,70 (30) Arnai 3,62 (26)
Perhaps you'll have some comments to share on Barça's player Fusté. I wonder about him for this season. He did not play much in NT (8 caps, 5 in '64, 1 in '66 and two from the bench in '69). Barça did not rank high in the League, but they still reached the Cup Winenrs Cup Final... lost to Slovan Bratislava. I guess he had a down after '64 or '66 but it seems that he was a very good player (who also played at several positions) thus yes, I wonder about him for 68-69. + perhaps some things about the young Rexach too.
I had Rexach as a pre-nominee worthy to follow up, but he had no continuity in any of the competitions with Barcelona, which is why I ruled out any option to his nomination. Figure along with other young people like Rojo, Marcial, Asensi or Clemente, as great hopes for the future in Spanish football. Regarding Fusté, I still continue to accumulate merits. I'm seeing that he had several excellent matches. I will try to detail more in the coming days.
I've no doubts, Chumpitaz was the better player in the WCQ vs ARG (Lima) - argentinian DT, Pedernera, said "that little centreback won the match for you, he's really on another level". As PDG said, the goal, a great one scored by Perico controlling the ball with the chest to score a very nice goal, with a lob from close distant. But the play started when Chumpitaz won a duel from the left and dribble past an argentinian and then put the ball with a 70m long pass to Leon chest. In resume, in a close match, with few goal chances, Chumpitaz and Leon were the heroes, defensive and mid lines rated as slow and the forward line the fastest ever for Peru, but too individualistic. vs BOL (La Paz) - again Chumpitaz was the best peruvian player, even when he scored an own-goal, the offensive players played regular, maybe Gallardo better than the rest. But the better players were the defenders and the keeper. vs BOL (Lima) - There's little reference about this match, but It seems Perú won with its classic displays, a Jogo Bonito style. So, I think the better were Cubillas, Gallardo vs ARG (Bs.As) - Chumpitaz was an autentic wall against argentinian attacks, the other giant was Chale who controlled the tempo at midfield, launching dangerous counters and dominating psicologically the match. Even without youngsters Muñante and P.Rojas, peruvian forwards were arguably the fastest ever at that point in its history. Others who played notably that match, were Rubiños, De la Torre, Cachito Ramírez and Cubillas.