BigSoccer's Players of the Season: 1872

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I like Alcock and Thompson for two of the three spots. I am not sure about the last.

    Vidal, Chenery, Sampson, Clegg, and Walker have all been mentioned.
     
  2. elegos7

    elegos7 Member

    Jun 28, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    We should try to specify in which Sheffield club those four nominees played. Thanks to peterhrt, we know Clegg mainly played for Sheffield FC, whereas Sampson for The Wednesday.
    It would be great to know the main club of Wiley and Wood as well.

    As for Arnold Smith, it is a but misleading to list him for Scotland. Although he played for the London-based Scottish team in this season, he was born and lived in England.
     
  3. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Willey and Wood played for Sheffield FC.

    Nationality was fluid, especially among London-based Scots.

    There are still six Queen's Park men. James Smith moved down to London but was only named as a reserve for Scotland in the November match against England. He could reasonably make way for Charles Stephenson, who was considered by the Daily Telegraph to be the best player in this game.
     
  4. elegos7

    elegos7 Member

    Jun 28, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    I agree with this change.
     
  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Final 23 pending conformation

    If we nail this down as the list of players I will alphabetize and unsure we have the correct clubs.

    Charles Alcock (Wanderers, England)
    Walpole Vidal (Wanderers, England)
    Morton Betts (Wanderers, England)
    Thomas Hooman (Wanderers, England)
    Albert Thompson (Wanderers, England)
    Charles Wollaston (Wanderers, England)
    Alexander Bonsor (Wanderers, England)
    Robert Walker (Clapham Rovers, England)
    Charles Clegg (Sheffield Wednesday, England)
    GH Sampson (Sheffield Wednesday)
    TC Wiley (Sheffield Wednesday)
    F Wood (Sheffield Wednesday)
    Charlie Chenery (Crystal Palace, England)
    Alexander Morten (Crystal Palace)
    Robert Gardner (Queen's Park)
    Joseph Taylor (Queen's Park)
    William Ker (Queen's Park)
    James Weir (Queen's Park)
    David Wotherspoon (Queens Park)
    Henry Renny Tailyour (Royal Engineers, Scotland)
    Francis Marindin (Royal Engineers)
    Arnold Smith (Oxford, Scotland)
    Charles Stephenson (Wanderers, England)
     
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  6. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    My goal with teams was not to list (club, nationality) the way you traditionally see it, but a list of team the player played on during the season. So if a player plays for multiple clubs or an all star team like FIFA IX, World IX etc list those as well.

    Is there a differnt name used to denote these "Scotland" teams as London based scots?
     
  7. elegos7

    elegos7 Member

    Jun 28, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    I agree with this final list.
     
  8. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    #58 peterhrt, Feb 26, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
    Looks fine.

    Should be A Wood and TC Willey. Arnold Smith was sometimes known as Arnold Kirke Smith.

    The unofficial internationals were billed at the time as England v Scotland so I think it is OK to use Scotland as a team name. Average age of those appearing in the internationals was 21.

    The Sheffield players turned out for several clubs. Not all played for Wednesday. I would just list them as Sheffield as all represented the town/association against London. Sheffield had their own association.

    Additional teams represented by the above:

    Alcock: London, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park
    Betts: London, Harrow Chequers, West Kent
    Chenery: London
    Hooman: London, Old Carthusians
    Morten: London
    Arnold Smith: Oxford University not Oxford.
    Stephenson: London, Westminster School
    Thompson: London
    Vidal: London, Old Westminsters
    Wollaston: London, Oxford University
     
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  9. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Final 23 Man Shortlist

    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Betts, Morton (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Chequers, West Kent, England)
    Bonsor, Alexander (Wanderers, England)
    Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England)
    Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Gardder, Robert (Queen's Park)
    Hooman, Thomas (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Ker, William (Queen's Park)
    Marindin, Francis (Royal Engineers)
    Morten, Alexander (Crystal Palace. London XI)
    Renny-Tailyour , Henry (Royal Engineers, Scotland)
    Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI)
    Smith, Arnold Kirke (Oxford University, Scotland)
    Stephenson, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Westminster School, England)
    Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park)
    Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)
    Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England)
    Walker, Robert (Clapham Rovers, England)
    Weir, James (Queen's Park)
    Willey, TC (Sheffield XI)
    Wotherspoon, David (Queen's Park)
    Wollaston, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Wood, A (Sheffield XI)
     
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  10. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    For the top three I like Alcock and Thompson and am ok with any of Vidal, Chenery or Walker for the third spot.

    I also think Renny-Tailyour is worth some thought for the third spot but others have not mentioned him.

    Sampson not playing in the FA Cup or England/Scotland matches hurts him in my opinion, and reports on Clegg seemed mixed.
     
  11. elegos7

    elegos7 Member

    Jun 28, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    #61 elegos7, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
    I agree with this list.

    The spelling should be Gardner.

    And what about changing the title of this thread to 1871/1872 or 1871-1872?
    In this case it would be clear what season we are talking about.
     
  12. elegos7

    elegos7 Member

    Jun 28, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    I agree with Alcock and Thompson for the two top spots.

    I do not know why Walker did not play in the London team vs Sheffield and in the second match against Scotland. And his team, Clapham Rovers lost rather decisively against Wanderers in the FA Cup.
    I am ready to nominate Chenery as No 3, who played well against Sheffield in all three matches and in the FA Cup.
     
  13. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Alcock, Chenery and Thompson look fine as a Top 3.
     
  14. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Team of the season added let me know what you think, just approximated based on the conversation, we can still change it.

    Final 23 Man Shortlist


    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Betts, Morton (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Chequers, West Kent, England)
    Bonsor, Alexander (Wanderers, England)
    Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England)
    Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park)
    Hooman, Thomas (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Ker, William (Queen's Park)
    Marindin, Francis (Royal Engineers)
    Morten, Alexander (Crystal Palace. London XI)
    Renny-Tailyour , Henry (Royal Engineers, Scotland)
    Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI)
    Smith, Arnold Kirke (Oxford University, Scotland)
    Stephenson, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Westminster School, England)
    Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park)
    Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)
    Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England)
    Walker, Robert (Clapham Rovers, England)
    Weir, James (Queen's Park)
    Willey, TC (Sheffield XI)
    Wotherspoon, David (Queen's Park)
    Wollaston, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Wood, A (Sheffield XI)

    Finalists

    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)

    Winner

    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)

    Team of the Season

    Forward: Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England)
    Forward: Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Forward: Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Forward: Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI)
    Forward: Weir, James (Queen's Park)
    Forward: Wollaston, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Halfback: Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England)
    Halfback: Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)
    Fullback: Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park)
    Fullback: Ker, William (Queen's Park)
    Goalkeeper: Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park)
     
  15. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    #65 peterhrt, Feb 28, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
    There is not a big difference but Hooman was rated more highly than Wollaston.

    My previous diagram was a bit confusing as it showed Clegg and Hooman in the middle whereas both were forwards.

    That would give a 2-1-7 formation. Most London teams this season either played that or 1-1-8.
     
  16. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Final 23 Man Shortlist

    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Betts, Morton (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Chequers, West Kent, England)
    Bonsor, Alexander (Wanderers, England)
    Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England)
    Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park)
    Hooman, Thomas (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Ker, William (Queen's Park)
    Marindin, Francis (Royal Engineers)
    Morten, Alexander (Crystal Palace. London XI)
    Renny-Tailyour , Henry (Royal Engineers, Scotland)
    Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI)
    Smith, Arnold Kirke (Oxford University, Scotland)
    Stephenson, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Westminster School, England)
    Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park)
    Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)
    Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England)
    Walker, Robert (Clapham Rovers, England)
    Weir, James (Queen's Park)
    Willey, TC (Sheffield XI)
    Wotherspoon, David (Queen's Park)
    Wollaston, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Wood, A (Sheffield XI)

    Finalists

    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)

    Winner

    Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)

    Team of the Season

    Forward: Vidal, Walpole (Wanderers, London XI, Old Westminsters, England)
    Forward: Alcock, Charles (Wanderers, London XI, Harrow Pilgrims, Upton Park, England)
    Forward: Chenery, Charlie (Crystal Palace, London XI, England)
    Forward: Sampson, GH (Sheffield XI)
    Forward: Weir, James (Queen's Park)
    Forward: Hooman, Thomas (Wanderers, London XI, Old Carthusians, England)
    Forward: Clegg, Charles (Sheffield XI, England)
    Halfback: Thompson, Albert (Wanderers, London XI, England)
    Fullback: Taylor, Joseph (Queen's Park)
    Fullback: Ker, William (Queen's Park)
    Goalkeeper: Gardner, Robert (Queen's Park)
     
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  17. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I will start a thread for 1872-73 soon.
     
  18. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    Forgive me for reopening this debate, but can we consider that Alcock was undoubtedly the one who scored the most goals that season, as Golden Shoe winner?
     
  19. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    We cannot be certain. He is reported to have scored 10 goals for Wanderers, some of which will have been against very weak opponents (coefficients?).

    With the haphazard reporting of football at the time, others may well have scored more, especially in the London and Sheffield areas. It was not uncommon for a player to score five goals or more in single mismatch.
     
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  20. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    Then, how we can define the best player of the year 1870, when the first official competitions only took place in 1872?
     
  21. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Because there was more to football than official competitions. Some friendlies were more evenly matched. Several teams didn't bother turning up at FA Cup ties or did so with fewer than eleven men.

    The main reason for starting a league in 1888 was because there was more chance of both teams attending with a full side and spectators not having a wasted journey. It was quite common for amateur footballers to find something better to do at the last minute.
     
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  22. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Leading FA Cup and Scottish Cup scorers where information exists:

    1872: 2 - Kenrick (Clapham Rovers), Renny-Taylour (Royal Engineers), Young (Maidenhead)
    1873: 3 - Dixon (Oxford University)
    1874: 4 - W McKinnon (Queen's Park), McPherson (Clydesdale)
    1875: 5 - Alcock, Kingford, Wollaston (all Wanderers)
    1876: 6 - Rawson (Royal Engineers)
    1877: 5 - Owen (Sheffield)
    1878-88: Insufficient information.

    From 1889 onwards you have used coefficients to arrive at a worthy winner. Not all the names above were worthy winners. Certainly not Owen whose goals all came in a one-sided thrashing of little-known South Norwood.

    You could add internationals but then there is inconsistency with the later selections, as indeed there is by including cup competitions here.

    @TerjeC has posted Top 23s and teams for some pre-WW1 seasons. It would be worth adding his views to the players-of-the-year mix.
     
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