This season a possible starting point for what could be considered a "season" in soccer history, although you could go back a few more years. This season runs from late 1871 to early 1872. The international match this year is later in the year than usual but we will include it in this season. In the following seasons the international moves into the spring/summer and we have a more traditional season structure the remains in Europe to this day. The major events/competitions are: The first FA Cup played from November 11th 1871 to March 16th 1872. The challenge match between Queen's Park and Wanderers played on March 4th 1872. The first officially recognized international match between England and Scotland played on November 3rd 1872. With no Scottish Cup yet and a very light schedule played by Queen's Park I am not sure of what other important matches we should be looking at. Please suggest other important matches. @elegos7 @peterhrt @comme
Some sources of information for those events. The wiki for the FA Cup is very detailed with some good information but I am not sure how it was sourced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1871–72_FA_Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1872_FA_Cup_Final This is an excellent website detailing the early seasons in Queen's Park history that is well sourced newspapers of the time. Linked to the 1872 season. http://www.qphistory.com/p/season-187172.html The following links are from this excellent website londonhearts.com that has an archive of newspaper articles pertaining to Scottish football. Scotsman's report on England vs Scotland http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1872/1872113001.htm Glasgow Herald's report on Queen's Park vs Wanderers http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1872/1872030401.htm
I guess we should also include the unofficial England v Scotland match featuring London based Scottish and English players (As opposed to the official match later in the year which was a Glasgow based Scottish team). Was played Feb. 11th 1872. Scotsman's report http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1872/1872022401.htm
I am wavering on weather to include the November official international in this season. It was actually played on November 30th. Should probably be a part of the next season 1872-73, which will then have two official internationals. Let me know what you guys think.
Report of the FA Cup Final and results of previous rounds. 15 games in total. There were several byes and walkovers. Drawn matches in the first round and quarter-finals meant both teams went through! http://www.stevesfootballstats.uk/fa_cup_1871-72_results.html The challenge match between Queen's Park and Wanderers was cancelled when the clubs were drawn against each other in the semi-final of the FA Cup. Wanderers played 37 matches in 1870-71, but appeared to focus on the FA Cup in 1871-72. In Scotland Queen's Park only played a couple of games against Granville. The first official international in November 1872 should belong to the 1872-73 season. Scottish goalkeeper Robert Gardner and forward Robert Smith swapped positions at half-time.
Details of the unofficial England v Scotland matches in November 1871 and February 1872. http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Seas1872-00/1871-72/UM004Sco1871.html http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Seas1872-00/1871-72/UM005Sco1872.html
It was in 1871 when outfield players were forbidden to carry the ball in their hands and Rugby broke away from Football. Anything before that was not really modern football and can be ignored.
Hi Tom, Thanks for starting this thread. I think we should regard the seasons just as Charles Alcock and the FA has defined them; starting in September and finishing in April. Football was regarded a winter game in England and was not played in the summer. So the international match in Glasgow in November 1972 should be considered for the next season. Apart from the FA Cup and the two international matches between England and London-based Scotland we should also take into account the Sheffield vs London inter-association matches, which continued with three encounters in this season, after a hiatus of five years. Usually the games in Sheffield were played by the local rules, while those in London by the FA rules. In December Sheffield, led by Charles Clegg, wins 3-1 against London (captained by Alcock). In January London defeats Sheffield 1-0, while a week later Sheffield wins 2-1 using mixed rules. Unfortunately, I do not know the line-ups and further details. I would include the following players in the Top23 for the season Charles Alcock ENG Wanderers captain of the FA Cup winning team; plays 23 matches for Wanderers (scoring 10 goals); captain of England twice Robert Walker ENG Clapham Rovers scores two goals against "Scotland" in one match; captain of Clapham Rovers Charles Clegg ENG Sheffield became the first non-London player to participate in the Alcock internationals, and he scored England’s winning goal Robert Gardner SCO Queen's Park became goalkeeper and captain of Queen's Park in their match against Wanderers Walpole Vidal ENG Wanderers FA Cup, known as the "prince of dribblers" Joseph Taylor SCO Queen's Park best of the early Scottish backs James Smith SCO Queen's Park captain of Queen's Park in the 1871/72 season, but he soon leaves for London Henry Renny-Tailyour SCO Royal Engineers captain of "London-based Scotland" in one match and scores a goal; scores two goals in the FA Cup semis Francis Marindin ENG Royal Engineers captain of Royal Engineers Morton Betts ENG Harrow Chequers/Wanderers scores the winning goal in the FA Cup Final ; he went to South America on business in 1873-76 Thomas Hooman ENG Wanderers FA Cup, a skillful dribbler William Merriman ENG Royal Engineers extremely efficient goal-keeping in the FA Cup final A notable absentee is Arthur Kinnaird, who takes the entire season off to visit the charitable missions set up by his mother in India. My Top3 for this season: 1. Charles Alcock (ENG - Wanderers) 2. Robert Walker (ENG - Clapham Rovers) 3. Charles Clegg (ENG - Sheffield)
I am going to start a nominees list. Feel free to copy and paste it and add to it. I am going to list only club and/or countries represented during this season. Nominees Charles Alcock (Wanderers, England) Walpole Vidal (Wanderers, England) Morton Betts (Wanderers, England) Thomas Hooman (Wanderers, England) Robert Walker (Clapham Rovers, England) Charles Clegg (Sheffield Wednesday, England) Robert Gardner (Queen's Park) Joseph Taylor (Queen's Park) James Smith (Queen's Park) Henry Renny Tailyour (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Francis Marindin (Royal Engineers) William Merriman (Royal Engineers
Scotsman's report on the unofficial friendly between Scotland and England in November of 1871. http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1871/1871111801.htm
The Glasgow Herald's report on the FA Cup semifinal of Queen's Park vs Wanderers basically declares the the first ever visit of a Scottish club to England a success. They describe the game as very even with Rangers holding an advantage early in the game and Wanderers later. Scots are described as lighter/smaller, but with more energy and organization, while players from Wanderers were more individually talented and better dribblers. The report singles out the players most deserving of praise for Rangers: William Kerr, David Wotherspoon, James Weir, and Robert Gardner. I will add Kerr, Wotherspoon, and Weir to the list of nominees. Kerr and especially Weir are two of the most famous Queen's Park players of the early and mid 1870s.
Nominees Charles Alcock (Wanderers, England) Walpole Vidal (Wanderers, England) Morton Betts (Wanderers, England) Thomas Hooman (Wanderers, England) Robert Walker (Clapham Rovers, England) Charles Clegg (Sheffield Wednesday, England) Robert Gardner (Queen's Park) Joseph Taylor (Queen's Park) James Smith (Queen's Park) William Kerr (Queen's Park) James Weir (Queen's Park) David Wotherspoon (Queens Park) Henry Renny Tailyour (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Francis Marindin (Royal Engineers) William Merriman (Royal Engineers) Only 15 nominees thus far.
Scotsman report on England vs Scotland in Nov 1871: The absence of Kinnaird is noted as major detriment to Scotland's chances. The first goal for England is described and a scrum near the Scotland goal finished off by a good kick from Walker. The second goal is described as similar to the first and England continue with more pressure after that, their style described as a physical game with little skill.Scotland fight back eventually led by Tailyour and Arnold Smith (club team was Oxford FC) who combined for an excellent run to pull one back. The two player were again singled out for leading a strong effort to equalize Overall players singled out were Walker as the hero for England with the rest of the squad playing well be with consistent effort and other one player standing out. For the Scots Tailyour, Smith, Robert Crawford (Harrow Chequers), Charles Nepean (Oxford FC), and William Lindsay. (multiple clubs). Scotsman report om the England vs Scotland match in Feb of 1872: Scotland are shorthanded again missing Kinnaird and now their top forward Tailyour. Subsequently England are described as dominant throughout, unlike the first match which was relatively even. Scots were lucky to only lose 1-0. Poor field conditions made for a poor game and little dribbling.England scores relatively early in the game, Scotland has a rare offensive immediately after and almost scores before England dominates the second half. The poor conditions favored the heavier and more physical English side. Players noted: for England Vidal is singled out for his excellent dribbling despite the conditions, Albert Thompson (Wanderers) for excellent kicking from the back. Hooman, Percy Weston (Barnes Club), Charles Wollaston (Wanderers), and Alexander Bonson (Wanderers) were noted for strong forward play. Lindsay is noted for a valiant effort from the back for Scotland. I am going to add Smith, Lindsay, Thompson, Bonson, and Wollaston to the short list.
Nominees Charles Alcock (Wanderers, England) Walpole Vidal (Wanderers, England) Morton Betts (Wanderers, England) Thomas Hooman (Wanderers, England) Albert Thompson (Wanderers, England) Charles Wollaston (Wanderers, England) Alexander Bonson (Wanderers, England) Robert Walker (Clapham Rovers, England) Charles Clegg (Sheffield Wednesday, England) Robert Gardner (Queen's Park) Joseph Taylor (Queen's Park) James Smith (Queen's Park) William Kerr (Queen's Park) James Weir (Queen's Park) David Wotherspoon (Queens Park) Henry Renny Tailyour (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Francis Marindin (Royal Engineers) William Merriman (Royal Engineers) Arnold Smith (Oxford, Scotland) William Lindsay (Multiple Clubs, Scotland)
These three matches took place on 3/12/71, 27/1/72 and 2/3/72. The second and third matches were 12-a-side. 5,000 spectators turned up to the first game at Bramall Lane, Sheffield, and 6,000 to the third fixture at the same venue. Sheffield fielded a settled team with the following nine playing all three games: J Marsh (cover goal and captain), H Ash (side), WH Carr (goalkeeper), Charles Clegg, WG Clegg, J Hollingsworth, C Mills (side), GH Sampson (forward) and F Wood. For London only Alcock (Wanderers), Charlie Chenery (Crystal Palace) and Charles Stephenson (Wanderers) appeared on all three occasions. It was only in the second fixture at The Oval, London, that their team was at full strength. Bell's Life considered this combination to be the best ever seen on a London ground. Only Chenery and Sampson were highly praised by the press in all three matches. Alcock, Marsh and Wood were acclaimed in two of the three, as was Charlie Clegg, whose kicking was described as erratic in the first match. TC Willey of Sheffield was one of the best players in each of the two games he played. For the London game, the Morning Post said Holden was the home team's leading light and that goalkeeper Alexander Morton of Crystal Palace performed in his usual excellent style. Bell's Life and the Morning Post both also praised home players Thomas Hooman, Vidal and the backs Stephenson and Albert Thompson, as well as Alcock and Chenery. London had the superior dribblers, with Alcock described by the Sheffield Independent as the best in the game. They tended to pack the middle of the field and attack en masse. The Sheffield Daily Telegraph considered the local team's tactics more refined, with specialists sticking to their roles under the direction of captain Marsh. Only London-based players seem to have been considered for England selection. It does not necessarily mean they were better than the Sheffield men. In the Wanderers v Queen's Park game, the Morning Post singled out Alcock and Pelham for Wanderers, and Gardner, Ker and Taylor for Queen's Park. Sources are from the British Newspaper Archive, managed by the British Library Board.
Charles Nepean was another important player for Scotland unnoficial matches. I don't know exactly for these matches,
I would say that Chenery and Sampson should be included, and Willey, Marsh, Wood, Morton and Holden also considered.
Betts, Holden and Morton were available and left out by the England selectors for one or other of the unofficial internationals against Scotland. That might weaken their case for inclusion in the season's Top 23.
Nominees Charles Alcock (Wanderers, England) Walpole Vidal (Wanderers, England) Morton Betts (Wanderers, England) Thomas Hooman (Wanderers, England) Albert Thompson (Wanderers, England) Charles Wollaston (Wanderers, England) Alexander Bonson (Wanderers, England) Robert Walker (Clapham Rovers, England) Charles Clegg (Sheffield Wednesday, England) GH Sampson (Sheffield Wednesday) John Marsh (Sheffield Wednesday) TC Wiley (Sheffield Wednesday) F Wood (Sheffield Wednesday) Charlie Chenery (Crystal Palace, England) Alexander Morton (Crystal Palace) Robert Gardner (Queen's Park) Joseph Taylor (Queen's Park) James Smith (Queen's Park) William Kerr (Queen's Park) James Weir (Queen's Park) David Wotherspoon (Queens Park) Henry Renny Tailyour (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Francis Marindin (Royal Engineers) William Merriman (Royal Engineers) Arnold Smith (Oxford, Scotland) Charles Nepean (Oxford, Scotland) William Lindsay (Multiple Clubs, Scotland)
Up to 27 nominees now, please feel free to add any more before we try to whittle back down to 23. Should not be to hard with such minimal schedules from Sheffield and Queen's Park players, does not seem necessary to have too many on the list.
There are three typos in the list, the correct names are Alexander Bonsor, Alexander Morten and William Ker.
Nominees Charles Alcock (Wanderers, England) Walpole Vidal (Wanderers, England) Morton Betts (Wanderers, England) Thomas Hooman (Wanderers, England) Albert Thompson (Wanderers, England) Charles Wollaston (Wanderers, England) Alexander Bonsor (Wanderers, England) Robert Walker (Clapham Rovers, England) Charles Clegg (Sheffield Wednesday, England) GH Sampson (Sheffield Wednesday) John Marsh (Sheffield Wednesday) TC Wiley (Sheffield Wednesday) F Wood (Sheffield Wednesday) Charlie Chenery (Crystal Palace, England) Alexander Morten (Crystal Palace) Robert Gardner (Queen's Park) Joseph Taylor (Queen's Park) James Smith (Queen's Park) William Ker (Queen's Park) James Weir (Queen's Park) David Wotherspoon (Queens Park) Henry Renny Tailyour (Royal Engineers, Scotland) Francis Marindin (Royal Engineers) William Merriman (Royal Engineers) Arnold Smith (Oxford, Scotland) Charles Nepean (Oxford, Scotland) William Lindsay (Multiple Clubs, Scotland) If no one has anymore nominees I think we should thinking about which players are the least essential to get the list down to 23.